Southeastern station refused GWR mobile ticket for break of journey

[colinz]

This morning (19/6) I bought a ticket from GWR’s mobile app, an Off-peak Day Return ticket for Woolston-Ore routed via Edenbridge/Polegate. At last step, I forgot to switch the delivery method from the default mobile ticket to physical ticket and was issued two QR Aztec codes on my phone. I contacted GWR’s twitter team and was told Break of Journey is permitted on those tickets, despite what’s written on it says otherwise.

On the return leg, I decided to start at Hastings and go via Battle-Edenbridge, but was refused entry first by gate staff and then by ticket office staff. They said Southeastern-managed stations do not accept QR- Aztec-code tickets and I could only start my journey on a Southern station. I therefore had to buy new paper tickets to cover the additional journey (Ore to Battle day return).

My question is, should I complain to GWR for issuing me a ticket not suitable for travel, or to SE for refusing a valid ticket for travel?

 

[Watershed]

This morning (19/6) I bought a ticket from GWR’s mobile app, an Off-peak Day Return ticket for Woolston-Ore routed via Edenbridge/Polegate. At last step, I forgot to switch the delivery method from the default mobile ticket to physical ticket and was issued two QR codes on my phone. I contacted GWR’s twitter team and was told Break of Journey is permitted on those tickets, despite what’s written on it says otherwise.

On the return leg, I decided to start at Hastings and go via Battle-Edenbridge, but was refused entry first by gate staff and then by ticket office staff. They said Southeastern-managed stations do not accept QR-code tickets and I could only start my journey on a Southern station. I therefore had to buy new paper tickets to cover the additional journey (Ore to Battle day return).

My question is, should I complain to GWR for issuing me a ticket not suitable for travel, or to SE for refusing a valid ticket for travel?

The ticket was perfectly valid to start your return journey at Hastings. SE were in the wrong and you should raise your complaint with them. The station staff's claims are totally illogical.

 

[py_megapixel]

It's Southeastern's fault. In almost all cases, ticket validity is irrespective of format - if a TOC doesn't have the equipment to read a specific format it's there problem not the passenger's.

If I was in that situation I would be making a complaint and pursuing, at the very least, a refund for the cost of the extra ticket you were forced to purchase

 

[Argyle 1980]

Etickets and Southeastern are a toxic mix. They seem to hate the things and have told me via email they have absolutely no intention of introducing them.
There's quite a few instances where they are valid and sold, mostly the route Edenbridge/Polegate/Barnham tickets to Marshlink Stations via Tonbridge and Ashford.
Most of the SE staff I encounter don't even know they exist when shown them, which isn't the staff's fault really as management have never given them training on them.
I remember not long after the first lockdown when compulsory reservations were introduced, I had a super off peak return portion from Paddington to Liskeard that I intended to use on the Saturday but changed my plans to Sunday so went to Dover Priory ticket office to make a new seat reservation and the lady asked for my ticket first, which I handed to her in the form of a printed A4 Eticket issued by Arriva XC and she bizarrely asked for my bank card thinking it was to collect card ticket. When I told her that was my actual ticket, she wouldn't have any of it and insisted it wasn't a genuine ticket and refused to make the reservation for me.

Also, tickets inside GWRs app have "break of journey not permitted" written on the details.
Can anyone tell me if this is actually correct and an eticket specific condition or if it's just an error on GWRs part?

 

[Kilopylae]

Error on GWR's part.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Did GWR not apply the Retail Control Service (RCS) data?

 

[AlterEgo]

Error on GWR's part.

For doing what?

 

[colinz]

Thanks for all your replies

I have since then contacted the twitter teams of both GWR and SE for further explanation.

GWR insisted SE should accept QR Aztec codes. On the other hand, they were now less sure about the entitlement of BoJ:

... there has been a bit of confusion with this lately. You can break your journey on this ticket type but the terms and conditions for e-tickets state that you can't. It needs to be looked into. I will do that and get back to you as soon as have an answer from our fares team

Meanwhile, I have checked with 2 SE station ticket offices, 1 SE train guard and their twitter team, all of whom insisted that QR Aztec code tickets are not valid neither for entering their station nor for onboard their trains.

This was what I wanted to check as we don't have the capacity to validate QR code tickets at our stations. If you would like to make a complaint about this I would recommend you sending details to us here and our escalations team will look into this https://bit.ly/2BmYhz4

As our company doesn't have a way of checking these tickets then you would need to purchase a paper ticket if you are planning to travel on our trains

Eventually I submitted written complains to both companies and will update once they give any response.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Thats strange as Southeastern flows were enabled as part of the initial response to the pandemic.

 

[David Goddard]

So Joe public is supposed to know that they need a paper ticket to use a SouthEastern train then???
How many people will get caught out by this and just pay for another ticket, rather than complain and it get sorted.

 

[alistairlees]

GWR insisted SE should accept QR codes.

A small point f detail: the barcode is actually an Aztec code, not a QR code.

On the other hand, they were now less sure about the entitlement of BoJ:

This is rubbish. BoJ is the same no matter what the ticket format.

Meanwhile, I have checked with 2 SE station ticket offices, 1 SE train guard and their twitter team, all of whom insisted that QR code tickets are not valid neither for entering their station nor for onboard their trains.

This is rubbish. If a ticket is valid for a journey, then the format it is valid on does not matter. Their statement: "As our company doesn't have a way of checking these tickets then you would need to purchase a paper ticket if you are planning to travel on our trains" is incorrect; it is not your fault or concern that they have not purchased the means to check barcodes.

 

[PeterC]

This is rubbish. If a ticket is valid for a journey, then the format it is valid on does not matter. Their statement: "As our company doesn't have a way of checking these tickets then you would need to purchase a paper ticket if you are planning to travel on our trains" is incorrect; it is not your fault or concern that they have not purchased the means to check barcodes.

Who determines what constitutes a valid ticket format and how can individual TOCs object to this?

I assume that a TOC can't unilaterally introduce a new format for the tickets they issue amd impose it on the others.

 

[alistairlees]

Who determines what constitutes a valid ticket format and how can individual TOCs object to this?

I assume that a TOC can't unilaterally introduce a new format for the tickets they issue amd impose it on the others.

Rail settlement plan (rsp) in consultation with retailers and TOCs. A TOC can unilaterally do something if it’s only for use on its own services.

 

[Argyle 1980]

The "break of journey not permitted" only seems to show up on GWR app tickets on the conditions screen with the ticket details. If you print the paper copy off, then theres absolutely no reference to this.
Though I've only seen this happen once, I have seen a ticket examiner scan a paper roll ticket of somebody who got out at Redruth and then boarded a later train, only for the ticket examiner to tell her that the ticket had already been used. Heard her explaining what she'd done and the ticket examiner was adamant it wasn't allowed and he will let her off this time, he also claimed if it was an inspector, then a penalty fare would have been issued.
All the GWR staff I've asked about the legitimacy of breaking Etickets and paper roll tickets seem dumbfounded on ot and don't actually know who's in the right or wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "break of journey" thing does need fixing, but it isn't the issue here. The issue is SE not accepting e-tickets for starting short where the ticket is for a Permitted Route using their services, isn't it?

 

[colinz]

The "break of journey" thing does need fixing, but it isn't the issue here. The issue is SE not accepting e-tickets for starting short where the ticket is for a Permitted Route using their services, isn't it?

Yes, I believe so.

In fact, even if I am not starting short, i.e. to start at Ore and change to an SE's Tonbridge train at Hastings, the e-ticket would still not be accepted by SE's onboard guard.

 

[Haywain]

The issue is SE not accepting e-tickets for starting short where the ticket is for a Permitted Route using their services, isn't it?

Amended that for you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Amended that for you.

Fair point. I'd certainly agree that accepting and issuing e-tickets should now be a condition of being a member of RSP.

 

[paul1609]

Im surprised that you are now having these problems. Pre covid I was using Appledore (kent) to Portsmouth e tickets via Tonbridge including being let out at Tonbridge for coffee and a paper with no problems.

 

[colinz]

Hi, I just received some ridiculous reply from Southeastern and would like to share below.

They did some calculation and came up with that leaving Woolston, I shouldn't have arrived Hastings as early as 14:20, because based on their calculation, the earliest arrival time should be 14:55 and that was not even on a permitted route. They then rejected my claim saying that the ticket is invalid because I shouldn't have been present a Hastings that early.

I have no idea how they did the calculation by sent them my actually journey details, stating 19 June was a Saturday with no time restriction under code B3, and by leaving 5:55 at Woolston and changing at Fareham and Brighton, one can arrive as early as 10:42am.

Thank you for contacting us on 19 June, regarding the issues you had with your ticket at Hasting station.

I'm very sorry to read you had problems using your return portion of an Off-Peak Day Return at around 14:20 that Saturday afternoon. I can appreciate that this must have been disappointing.

I've raised this with XXX, our Station Manager and the Fares team for further clarification. Our Fares team have advised that they will speak to GWR as it is their fare and they control the enablement. They have also confirmed the ticket wasn’t valid at that time to come back, given you would have had to leave Woolston before the ticket was valid. The earliest you could get to Hastings via a valid route is around 14:45 and that’s not via Edenbridge.

With this being said, I'm afraid we're unable to refund the additional ticket or original ticket purchased. I can appreciate that this will be disappointing, but I trust you'll understand our position.

Once again, thank you for taking the time to contact us and I hope I've been able to clarify the position around the ticket validity.

 

[paul1609]

Hi, I just received some ridiculous reply from Southeastern and would like to share below.

They did some calculation and came up with that leaving Woolston, I shouldn't have arrived Hastings as early as 14:20, because based on their calculation, the earliest arrival time should be 14:55 and that was not even on a permitted route. They then rejected my claim saying that the ticket is invalid because I shouldn't have been present a Hastings that early.

I have no idea how they did the calculation by sent them my actually journey details, stating 19 June was a Saturday with no time restriction under code B3, and by leaving 5:55 at Woolston and changing at Fareham and Brighton, one can arrive as early as 10:42am.

Id guess they are taking the time that you bought the ticket and calculating the time that it would have taken to travel from Woolston from then? Not saying thats right by the way.

 

[colinz]

Id guess they are taking the time that you bought the ticket and calculating the time that it would have taken to travel from Woolston from then? Not saying thats right by the way.

I don’t think that is likely.

I didn’t submit any picture of the ticket I bought or the reference number, and they didn’t ask for them. Even if they did magically tracked me down, I bought it right before boarding the train at 5:55am, which shouldn’t cause any problem.

I rather doubt that they simply input the origin and destination to a journey planner, forgot to specify route restriction but did mistakenly add a weekday time restriction. This would give them a via London connection only valid after 9am, which they use to reject my claim.

 

[Kilopylae]

Your theory finds weight in that "and that’s not via Edenbridge" line. It looks like they have forgotten that this particular Off-Peak Day Return had a route restriction on it.

 

[Haywain]

Your theory finds weight in that "and that’s not via Edenbridge" line. It looks like they have forgotten that this particular Off-Peak Day Return had a route restriction on it.

What's popularly known as a c*ck-up.

 

[Kilopylae]

Quite

 

[yorkie]

Hi, I just received some ridiculous reply from Southeastern and would like to share below.

They did some calculation and came up with that leaving Woolston, I shouldn't have arrived Hastings as early as 14:20, because based on their calculation, the earliest arrival time should be 14:55 and that was not even on a permitted route. They then rejected my claim saying that the ticket is invalid because I shouldn't have been present a Hastings that early.

I have no idea how they did the calculation by sent them my actually journey details, stating 19 June was a Saturday with no time restriction under code B3, and by leaving 5:55 at Woolston and changing at Fareham and Brighton, one can arrive as early as 10:42am.

This is not unusual for a train company to talk nonsense and treat its customers with contempt.

Most passengers probably give up but I'd be referring the matter to the Rail Ombudsman:

Start a Complaint - Rail Ombudsman

rail ombudsman customer complaints

www.railombudsman.org

 

[hkstudent]

To add a point: most SE stations ticket office also do not have barcode reader which would have difficulty in handling e ticket related issues.
Anyway, Southeastern is really kind of anti-e tickets.

 

[yorkie]

To add a point: most SE stations ticket office also do not have barcode reader which would have difficulty in handling e ticket related issues.

As stated in other threads, that's the company's problem and they have to let people through.

Anyway, Southeastern is really kind of anti-e tickets.

Indeed they are, they're a pretty rotten company generally.

I hope this matter is escalated.

As well as the option of going to the Ombudsman, proceedings could be made against Southeastern for breach of contract. A money claim online could also be made for any additional expenses occurred.

(Also a minor point I've just noticed from the original post, e-tickets contain Aztec codes, not QR codes, not that it changes any of the principles)

 

[RJ]

The culture at Southeastern is that the customer is always wrong. If they know you’re right, they will still uphold that ethos and hope you go away.

You have to communicate with them in a language they understand and ruffle some feathers to get them to take your comments seriously.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I have no idea how they did the calculation by sent them my actually journey details, stating 19 June was a Saturday with no time restriction under code B3, and by leaving 5:55 at Woolston and changing at Fareham and Brighton, one can arrive as early as 10:42am.

I'm curious as to your actual journey times as the route planner I'm looking at using 3 July as the date gets you there at 0958 (with an extra change at St. Leonard's) or 1018 (without). Maybe the timetable has changed since 19/6.