No more cheap Advance tickets on 07:59 Eastbourne to London Victoria?

[traincatcher]

Hi, first time here. I have found this forum by searching for some help.

I would like to explain my situation and hope for some advice.
I have been going weekly to London from more than one year, and I used to find some fair ticket price if I depart at 7.59 AM and return around 20 PM. For fair price I mean Advanced ticket bought 1 month before, and the total journey was around 18/20 pounds.

Now this looks has been changing drastically. I can still find some cheap advanced ticket for May but from June onwards they have disappeared.

Looks like they have removed all the Advanced tickets for the 7.59 AM, setting the price to 41.80 only to reach London (while the returns looks more or less the same). That means that the total journey is now above 50 pounds

I tried also with July and it's the same. It's not that the tickets are finished but It looks like they are just not available.

The only partial solution I found is to take the next train, at 08.33 AM which has only few tickets at 20 pounds.

Are you aware of some Southern Railway policy change? do you have any advice?

Thanks

 

[JonathanH]

Now this looks has been changing drastically. I can still find some cheap advanced ticket for May but from June onwards they have disappeared.

There is no requirement to offer any advanced tickets on any particular service, although I thought Southern had publicised that they would make more available on Mondays and Fridays.

It may simply be that the policy has changed from the start of June, and that they feel the market can support full fares. If trains are busy, they don't need to offer advance fares

 

[traincatcher]

Yes I understand that they are a private company and they can legally do it but on the other hand the traveller should have some options.

Those tickets are expensive because you pay for the freedom of taking any train in that day. I understand it. Still overpriced but it has a meaning.

But this should not be the only option. There should be cheaper ticket for a specific train, especially when you book it two months before..

 

[JonathanH]

Yes I understand that they are a private company and they can legally do it but on the other hand the traveller should have some options.

The fares are being set with agreement of the DfT and Treasury. The 'private company' aspect of it isn't what is causing advance tickets to be withdrawn

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I can see 1st class advance singles for Friday 14JUN2024 available at £19.90 on the 0833 and a Std class advance single at £7.00 on the 0905 but as @JonathanH has already noted, why should one expect Southern to offer cheapo advances on what are essentially peak hour or shoulder peak hour (and likely already busy) services into Central London?

 

[JonathanH]

why should one expect Southern to offer cheapo advances on what are essentially peak hour or shoulder peak hour (and likely already busy) services into Central London?

The issue here appears to be that they were offering them, creating an expectation they would continue, and have then withdrawn them.

Unfortunately, a general rule of train fares is that you make use of discounts and offers whilst they are available, but don't then get surprised when they are withdrawn.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If the demand is there and there is money to be made; i.e. charging full fare, then why not? Cheap advances are not an entitlement; if the company wants to withdraw them, then it shall. But annoying/upsetting I know

Do you have the option to travel later, or can you buy a season?

 

[traincatcher]

The issue here appears to be that they were offering them, creating an expectation they would continue, and have then withdrawn them.

I'm travelling from 1.5 years and they were there every day of the week, not sure if they have been there also before.

If the demand is there and there is money to be made; i.e. charging full fare, then why not? Cheap advances are not an entitlement; if the company wants to withdraw them, then it shall. But annoying/upsetting I know

Again yes they can do it, but it's not fair that if you book 2 months before you pay the full fare and rail cards cannot to be used too. I am going there to work (together with the majority of the people in train I suppose) and the idea that a good part of my earnings goes only to reach the place is upsetting.

There is no requirement to offer any advanced tickets on any particular service, although I thought Southern had publicised that they would make more available on Mondays and Fridays.

Thanks, I will search more in those days

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I'm travelling from 1.5 years and they were there every day of the week, not sure if they have been there also before.


Again yes they can do it, but it's not fair that if you book 2 months before you pay the full fare and rail cards cannot to be used too. I am going there to work (together with the majority of the people in train I suppose) and the idea that a good part of my earnings goes only to reach the place is upsetting.


Thanks, I will search more in those days

Unfortunately during/post COVID, a lot of traditional commuters decided to move further out of London (with cheaper housing) and then hoped to rely on cheap Advance fares to get them into the office occasionally in London. Some (particularly cheeky) staff even kept their London salary allowance/weighting!

Clearly, the government isn't going to let that happen - commuters are (or were) the demographic who primarily funded the railway along with InterCity business travellers.

Advance tickets (and most Railcards) are to stimulate travel at times when lots of excess capacity exists. Offering these sorts of Advance fares on London commuter services during the peak would be absolutely ridiculous, as even now, they're often pretty full - they certainly don't need to stimulate demand by offering cheaper tickets.

Tickets may have been available for 1.5 years as you say, but during this time travel has been recovering, and trains gradually getting busier and travel patterns normalised - the Advance tickets may well have done the job they were intended to do - bring people back, and now, they're not required.

The discount for regular commuters is usually via a season ticket (or Flexi season ticket).

 

[bakerstreet]

The issue here appears to be that they were offering them, creating an expectation they would continue, and have then withdrawn them.

Unfortunately, a general rule of train fares is that you make use of discounts and offers whilst they are available, but don't then get surprised when they are withdrawn.

I think this makes sense, but what’s unfortunate is that advance fares are marketed to passengers by the industry as fares like any other which just offer increased restrictions in return for a reduced price when bought in advance with the idea that the longer in advance you book, the bigger the saving.

I think most passengers understand that advance fares are “while stocks last” but not that they may be entirely removed from sale in the first place.

In this respect I feel that they can’t be considered as a special offer sale product – and they are not marketed to the passenger as such.
They have become an integral part of railway ticketing, in the sense that standard walk up fares appear to now be at risk and are able to now be at risk due to the existence of advance fares.

But I do understand everything you’ve written

 

[Watershed]

The discount for regular commuters is usually via a season ticket (or Flexi season ticket).

It takes a very narrow-minded, railway-oriented mindset to suggest that regulator commuters are getting a "discount" when they are, in fact, paying thousands of pounds a year (sometimes even five figures) - a substantial proportion of their income. This fails to take into consideration the fact that few people pay undiscounted Anytime fares; in fact, these are almost treated as a sort of 'punishment'. To have a regular, quasi-guaranteed level of income from season ticket holders is a significant benefit and something the railway should seek to attract through according pricing. At the moment, season ticket levels are simply too high to do that in many cases.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

It takes a very narrow-minded, railway-oriented mindset to suggest that regulator commuters are getting a "discount" when they are, in fact, paying thousands of pounds a year (sometimes even five figures) - a substantial proportion of their income. This fails to take into consideration the fact that few people pay undiscounted Anytime fares; in fact, these are almost treated as a sort of 'punishment'. To have a regular, quasi-guaranteed level of income from season ticket holders is a significant benefit and something the railway should seek to attract through according pricing. At the moment, season ticket levels are simply too high to do that in many cases.

Seasons worked pretty well for decades - you factored it in to your career costs/salary. Sometimes you took a season ticket loan out, any good employer would offer one.

Now that some companies are insisting on hybrid working, or even mandating office attendance, this group of people who moved further afield has come unstuck.

It's only post COVID that commuters now seem to want the best of both worlds - lower housing costs further from the capital AND cheap Advance fares.

Had COVID not happened, this wouldn't even be a discussion point - if you were a commuter, you got a season ticket.

As for your comments about Anytime fares, on commuter flows, the metric for how these increase has remained essentially the same - they're no more punitive than they were several years ago. Higher fares, yes, but that is inflation, not an attempt to make them punitive. On Intercity routes, it's a whole different business case/ commercial strategy, but this discussion is related to a commuter flow.

 

[OscarH]

The discount for regular commuters is usually via a season ticket (or Flexi season ticket).

I think it's laughable to call flexi seasons a discount

 

[JonathanH]

I think it's laughable to call flexi seasons a discount

They objectively offer a discount, just not a very generous one.

The issue in this case is what constitutes a reasonable fare from Eastbourne to London. The anytime day return is £78.50, which is clearly a lot of money, but the distance travelled is 65 miles each way.

An anytime day single into London is £41.80, with the possibility of an advance fare back after the peak for £10, so still £51.80 for the day.

However, the railway needs revenue to fill the hole left by the commuters who no longer travel as much as they did. It has to ensure that its decisions fit with what the market will bear, and seemingly some people do pay the fares requested.

 

[alistairlees]

Lower-price Advance tickets were, before Covid, never offered on weekday commuter services to / from London. To do so would have been unthinkable - why would a TOC reduce the most significant part of its income, that was pretty much guaranteed to pay full whack every day of the week (though using a season ticket, which gave a significant discount to the user, but cash up front to the TOC)?

Covid blew that assumption apart.

To encourage commuters back, TOCs started to offer Advance fares on commuter services.

As demand as recovered, there is no onger any need for Advance fares on these services, so they are being withdrawn.

 

[MrJeeves]

An anytime day single into London is £41.80, with the possibility of an advance fare back after the peak for £10, so still £51.80 for the day.

Or, worst case, a £27.55 flexible anytime single back with a Network Railcard. That's still a saving of £9.15 per day.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Hi, first time here. I have found this forum by searching for some help.

I would like to explain my situation and hope for some advice.
I have been going weekly to London from more than one year, and I used to find some fair ticket price if I depart at 7.59 AM and return around 20 PM. For fair price I mean Advanced ticket bought 1 month before, and the total journey was around 18/20 pounds.

Now this looks has been changing drastically. I can still find some cheap advanced ticket for May but from June onwards they have disappeared.

Looks like they have removed all the Advanced tickets for the 7.59 AM, setting the price to 41.80 only to reach London (while the returns looks more or less the same). That means that the total journey is now above 50 pounds

I tried also with July and it's the same. It's not that the tickets are finished but It looks like they are just not available.

The only partial solution I found is to take the next train, at 08.33 AM which has only few tickets at 20 pounds.

Are you aware of some Southern Railway policy change? do you have any advice?

Thanks

When you say weekly, do you mean once a week? And are you tied to going on a particular day, if it's a weekly visit? Do you always return the same day?

 

[JonathanH]

Or, worst case, a £27.55 flexible anytime single back with a Network Railcard. That's still a saving of £9.15 per day.

You can do better than that if travelling after 1915 by using the return portion of a super off peak day return with a network railcard.

 

[akm]

This thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swr-advance-ticket-availability.263784/#post-6671981 covers SWR's recent policy change (and partial reversal) in the same area. Getting that change (partially) reversed took a lot of complaint, and media attention - the same might or might not work for Southern, who knows.

 

[traincatcher]

Well first of all thanks all of you for joining the discussion, it's good to have at list some moral support and see different opinions

You can do better than that if travelling after 1915 by using the return portion of a super off peak day return with a network railcard.

I'm not so expert, can you explain your idea?
What I need to do is reaching Victoria one x week, Monday or Wednesday. In the morning the latest I can take is 8.33 (I used to take 7.59). In the evening I have more options and I usually take the cheaper return at 19 or 20. I was not able to find a network card for it.

This thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swr-advance-ticket-availability.263784/#post-6671981 covers SWR's recent policy change (and partial reversal) in the same area. Getting that change (partially) reversed took a lot of complaint, and media attention - the same might or might not work for Southern, who knows.

Thanks, I hope it will happen

 

[MrJeeves]

I'm not so expert, can you explain your idea?
What I need to do is reaching Victoria one x week, Monday or Wednesday. In the morning the latest I can take is 8.33 (I used to take 7.59). In the evening I have more options and I usually take the cheaper return at 19 or 20. I was not able to find a network card for it.

If I understand correctly, you would buy the £41.80 Anytime single from Eastbourne to Victoria for your outbound journey.

For your return then buy a Network Railcard discounted super off-peak return from Eastbourne to London for £15.80. You'd throw away the outbound portion and only use the return portion. This would only be valid to leave London after 19:15, or before 16:15.

The total cost would be £57.60 per day, plus the cost of a 1-year Network Railcard which is typically £30 without any discounts. You'd make back that £30 in savings compared to the Anytime Day Return (£78.50) in just two days of travel.

 

[paul1609]

If I understand correctly, you would buy the £41.80 Anytime single from Eastbourne to Victoria for your outbound journey.

For your return then buy a Network Railcard discounted super off-peak return from Eastbourne to London for £15.80. You'd throw away the outbound portion and only use the return portion. This would only be valid to leave London after 19:15, or before 16:15.

The total cost would be £57.60 per day, plus the cost of a 1-year Network Railcard which is typically £30 without any discounts. You'd make back that £30 in savings compared to the Anytime Day Return (£78.50) in just two days of travel.

Surely the OP wants to use the 08.33 which arrives at Victoria at 10.06 so an off peak day return is available at £41.90 with no return restrictions and no railcard needed?

 

[MrJeeves]

Surely the OP wants to use the 08.33 which arrives at Victoria at 10.06 so an off peak day return is available at £41.90 with no return restrictions and no railcard needed?

Given that the OP explicitly mentioned using the 0759, I don't think they want to use the 0833, and that is instead simply their next best alternative for advance availability.

The return ticket is, of course, a viable option, but advances may be cheaper as they say the return tickets haven't changed significantly in price.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I would suggest that the thread title is perhaps incorrect / misleading. There are indeed advance tickets available for most, if not all, journeys, direct from Eastbourne to London Victoria including the 0759. Just that they are perhaps no longer as cheap as the OP would ideally like, noting that this is for a journey into Central London at peak / shoulder peak hours.

 

[JonathanH]

I would suggest that the thread title is perhaps incorrect / misleading. There are indeed advance tickets available for most, if not all, journeys, direct from Eastbourne to London Victoria including the 0759. Just that they are perhaps no longer as cheap as the OP would ideally like, noting that this is for a journey into Central London at peak / shoulder peak hours.

I'm not seeing advance fares for the 0759 for any weekday date I have looked at in June or July. The original poster indicated they were available in May, then stop being available. Where are you seeing them, and at what price?

The National Rail booking horizons page says that advance quotas are released through to 26 July.

Southern
Saturday service: 13 July

Sunday service: 14 July

Monday to Friday service: 26 July

Latest time of reservation
Advance tickets are available up to 18:00 the day before travel.

Notes
Southern do not offer seat reservations but have quota controlled advance purchase products.

For Saturdays and Sundays, advance fares for Southern services will be released approximately seven days after the amended timetable has been uploaded to journey planners. Check here for when the amended timetables will be uploaded.

Southern are currently closed on Saturday 6 and Sunday 7 July.

Closed on all dates affected by industrial action.

Ah, I take that back. They seem to be available, at £33.40, on 10 June on the Southern booking engine, but not the GWR booking engine I was looking at, nor the forum's booking engine for that matter.
https://ticket.southernrailway.com/

That must be to do with this:

Commuters, save up to 15%

Advance tickets now available for peak travel on Mon & Fri

Book now

 

[island]

it's not fair that if you book 2 months before you pay the full fare and rail cards cannot to be used too.

The amount of time in advance that you book has no bearing on whether or not you can use a Railcard.

 

[James H]

But it is the case that Network Railcards don't give a discount on advance tickets, which is a rule from an era when Advances in the former NSE area didn't really exist on a mass scale.

 

[Sonic1234]

But it is the case that Network Railcards don't give a discount on advance tickets, which is a rule from an era when Advances in the former NSE area didn't really exist on a mass scale.

Which doesn't make sense as Advance tickets were a way to sell excess capacity.

Of course, they have become more commonplace since, often being the only affordable way to travel. Less so in the NSE area than elsewhere.