Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

[weeklycommuter]

Southern - West Coastway timetable changes

www.southernrailway.com

West Coastway: proposed timetable changes

Engagement on proposals
As part of our commitment to supporting your journeys, we have developed some proposals to change Southern services on the West Coastway from 2024.
From Download our document

https://www.southernrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-shared-pdfs-and-documents/timetable-consultation-2023/west-coastway-timetables-changes-engagement.pdf

This would change our services across the West Coastway, the route between Brighton, Worthing, Chichester, Portsmouth, and Southampton and services to London Victoria via Horsham.
The proposals refer to Southern services running Monday to Saturday on our West Coastway route. There are no changes proposed for Sundays.
Our proposals for West Coastway services are designed to improve reliability and make journeys, especially those over longer distances, more attractive, with space for customers where it is needed most.
There are changes to all services on the route, but the focus is on regional services from Brighton, longer distance services to London Victoria via Chichester and all-stations services along the coast.
Longer distance services will be redesigned. Rather than the current split between the cities, in the future both London Victoria via Horsham services will serve Portsmouth Harbour only, connecting to the ferry port and Gunwharf Quays, with both Brighton services serving Southampton only, providing connections for journeys into the west of England.
For both services this will mean improved regular intervals between trains at a new half-hourly frequency. It will create slightly faster journey times between Brighton and Southampton and will help to improve the reliability of Portsmouth Harbour to London Victoria services by creating a longer turnaround time. The proposed timetable has been designed so that Chichester or Barnham will provide a same platform interchange between services.
Longer distance services are also provided by Littlehampton to London Victoria via Worthing services. These are not proposed to significantly change outside of being increased to half-hourly all day with additional calls at Lancing.
A new half-hourly Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton all-stations service will run, providing extra capacity on the busiest section of the route into Brighton and simpler shorter distance journeys.
To make this change, the hourly all-stations Littlehampton to Portsmouth & Southsea service will be removed with smaller stations between Portsmouth and Chichester, such as Fishbourne, then divided between the two Portsmouth Harbour to London Victoria services. One train will serve Fishbourne, Nutbourne and Warblington, with the other serving Bosham and Bedhampton.
This will provide direct services to and from Gatwick Airport and London Victoria as well as retaining direct services to and from Portsmouth Harbour at the same frequency as today. Frequencies between Bognor Regis and Barnham will not change but the proposal is to create more even intervals between departures of approximately every 15 minutes by running two services to London Victoria and two shuttle services to and from Barnham.
We are adding a stop at Woolston to integrate with the very frequent bus service to access most parts of Southampton City Centre faster than can be achieved via Southampton Central.
The proposals in this document would require some related changes to South Western Railway services. These are mainly, but not limited to, the re-timing of trains and would only be introduced if the main Southern proposals are taken forward.

 

[swt_passenger]

Will be interesting to see how the overall timings from Cosham and Fareham to Southampton end up, with a half hourly Brighton to Southampton service it definitely improves on the current offer in terms of spreading the trains evenly around the hour, unlike currently where the 2 x SN and the GWR are all squeezed into about 15 mins. But we’ll still have the slight problem that the SWR stopper takes much longer than the other 3 services.

I was surprised by this possibility when it came up earlier in the discussion, as I thought that most passengers heading from Portsmouth and Southampton would prefer the choice of main destinations rather than the balanced half hourly timings, but I suppose they must have considered it…

 

[PGAT]

Is the Brighton - Chichester service going to replace the Hove shuttle or run alongside it?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is the Brighton - Chichester service going to replace the Hove shuttle or run alongside it?

Also, I see it replaces replace the existing Littlehampton to Portsmouth stopper? So there’ll only be the four tph through Havant, presumably at 15 min intervals, but reduced from the current five.

 

[PGAT]

Looks like they released specific timings as well. Looking at Havant, trains heading east to Chichester depart at 10/20 gaps, and west from Chichester to Havant, they depart at 4/26 gaps

 

[weeklycommuter]

Is the Brighton - Chichester service going to replace the Hove shuttle or run alongside it?

Hove shuttle listed in existing services but not in new services so must be replace.
See page 7 of document.
Proposed new timetable
2tph Brighton to Southampton Central
2tph London Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour and Bognor Regis (attaches / divides at Horsham)
2tph London Victoria to Littlehampton
2tph London Victoria to Brighton (Gatwick Express)
4tph Central London to Brighton (Thameslink)
2tph Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton (local) / 2tph Bognor to Barnham

 

[JonathanH]

Presumably the Southampton / Portsmouth changes are neutral with regard to unit utilisation, then Brighton to Chichester uses the four units off the current Portsmouth to Littlehampton / Littlehampton to Bognor services, the unit off the Hove shuttle, and the unit released by not running half hourly Redhill to Tonbridge services in the peak?

Putting more trains over the junctions at Arundel must be a bit of a performance risk.

 

[PGAT]

and the unit released by not running half hourly Redhill to Tonbridge services in the peak?

Where was that change confirmed?

 

[JonathanH]

Where was that change confirmed?

It was discussed on the local rail users facebook group as a proposal for this December, with two units maintaining a slightly better than hourly service rather than three units providing an even service.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...iFv3uUJYoQM3mg2n92UieAgcgl&id=100064718916937

It says 'Redhill to Tonbridge Line. SIgnificant cuts to services averted. No changes until December 2023, with small reductions thereafter'

 

[PTR 444]

This is a much needed improvement, bringing the West Coastway more in line with a proper taktplan. While direct links between Victoria/Soton and Brighton/Pompey will be lost, it will at least be a quick and easy change at Havant, Chichester or Barnham. I hope the 2tph between Brighton and Soton will enable some stations to be skipped on alternate services, speeding up the overall journey time between the two cities.

 

[PGAT]

I hope the 2tph between Brighton and Soton will enable some stations to be skipped on alternate services, speeding up the overall journey time between the two cities.

If the proposed timetable goes ahead, it will no longer stop at Fishersgate, East Worthing, West Worthing, Durrington-on-Sea and Goring-by-Sea, but it will call additionally at Woolston

 

[weeklycommuter]

My one big complaint is that GTR are not proposing to change the Sunday service as the existing Sunday West Coastway service is absolutely dreadful.

 

[PTR 444]

If the proposed timetable goes ahead, it will no longer stop at Fishersgate, East Worthing, West Worthing, Durrington-on-Sea and Goring-by-Sea, but it will call additionally at Woolston

Will this be on both services, or just one of the two?

Additionally, are the West Worthing terminators being reinstated?

 

[weeklycommuter]

If the proposed timetable goes ahead, it will no longer stop at Fishersgate, East Worthing, West Worthing, Durrington-on-Sea and Goring-by-Sea, but it will call additionally at Woolston

The reason given: "We are adding a stop at Woolston to integrate with the very frequent bus service to access most parts of Southampton City Centre faster than can be achieved via Southampton Central."
Woolston also has a large catchment area on the East side of Southampton and it would be quicker and easier for many people to board the trains there than go to Southampton Central. The longer turnaround time at Southampton Central means that Woolston can be added as an additional stop.

 

[PGAT]

Will this be on both services, or just one of the two?

Additionally, are the West Worthing terminators being reinstated?

It will be on both the services to Southampton.

The West Worthing terminators are not back per-se, but the 2tph Brighton - Chichester service will bring the Eastern end of the West Coastway back to 4tph (6tph if you include Victoria services)

 

[JonathanH]

Additionally, are the West Worthing terminators being reinstated?

They are converted into trains to Chichester via Littlehampton.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Will this be on both services, or just one of the two?

Additionally, are the West Worthing terminators being reinstated?

The two Southampton to Brighton trains each hour which replace 1tph Portsmouth to Brighton and 1tph Southampton to Brighton will not call at Aldrington, Fishersgate, East Worthing, West Worthing, Durrington on Sea or Goring by Sea, they will be served by the half hourly all stops Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton trains instead (the last three also by the Littlehampton to London Victoria trains). The proposed half hourly all stops Brighton to Chichester via Littlehampton service is in effect a reinstatement and extension of the West Worthing terminators.

 

[PTR 444]

It will be on both the services to Southampton.

The West Worthing terminators are not back per-se, but the 2tph Brighton - Chichester service will bring the Eastern end of the West Coastway back to 4tph (6tph if you include Victoria services)

Just had a read of the existing document and it appears that both trains will have the same calling pattern as follows:

• Southampton Central
• Woolston
• Swanwick
• Fareham
• Portchester
• Cosham
• Havant
• Emsworth
• Southbourne
• Chichester
• Barnham
• Ford
• Angmering
• Worthing
• Lancing
• Shoreham
• Southwick
• Portslade
• Hove
• Brighton

With 18 intermediate calls in both Soton - Brighton services, I’m not sure if the end to end journey time will be quicker than the December 2019 timetable. It might have been better to alternate some of the lesser used stations between the two services to speed up the overall journey.

 

[PGAT]

It might have been better to alternate some of the lesser used stations between the two services to speed up the journey somewhat.

That’s what they’ve done with the Victoria services, but none of the listed stations are THAT small compared to Nutbourne or Bedhampton (although a solid argument could be made that Ford doesn’t need 6tph)

 

[weeklycommuter]

Just had a read of the existing document and it appears that both trains will have the same calling pattern as follows:

• Southampton Central
• Woolston
• Swanwick
• Fareham
• Portchester
• Cosham
• Havant
• Emsworth
• Southbourne
• Chichester
• Barnham
• Ford
• Angmering
• Worthing
• Lancing
• Shoreham
• Southwick
• Portslade
• Hove
• Brighton

With 18 intermediate calls in both Soton - Brighton services, I’m not sure if the end to end journey time will be quicker than the December 2019 timetable. It might have been better to alternate some of the lesser used stations between the two services to speed up the overall journey.

They could drop Ford from this service, Barnham is a much better interchange station, 4tph should be sufficient for Ford. The timetables on the webpage show only one of the two trains will call at Portchester, presumably as currently the Southampton-Victoria train calls at Portchester and the Southampton-Brighton train does not. One oddity is that of the two Portsmouth Harbour to London Victoria trains each hour one calls at Nutbourne and Fishbourne and the other calls at Bosham so unlike now there will be no direct train connecting Bosham with neighbouring stations each side Fishbourne and Nutbourne.

 

[PTR 444]

That’s what they’ve done with the Victoria services, but none of the listed stations are THAT small compared to Nutbourne or Bedhampton (although a solid argument could be made that Ford doesn’t need 6tph)

The difference here is that there will be adjacent stations (Nutbourne/Fishbourne and Bosham) without a direct service between them. Personally I think with the local stations between Chichester and Cosham, they should have been included in both Victoria - Portsmouth services for connectivity purposes, even if demand doesn’t warrant it.

They could drop Ford from this service, Barnham is a much better interchange station, 4tph should be sufficient for Ford.

This would mean that Ford loses its direct service to Angmering, although with the option to travel indirect via Littlehampton this might actually not be that big of an issue.

 

[PGAT]

The difference here is that there will be adjacent stations (Nutbourne/Fishbourne and Bosham) without a direct service between them.

Realistically, who is going to be travelling between these tiny villages, and who would give up direct trains to London and Gatwick in favour of keeping direct services between each other?

Personally I think with the local stations between Chichester and Cosham, they should have been included in both Victoria - Portsmouth services for connectivity purposes, even if demand doesn’t warrant it.

…and they have

 

[PTR 444]

…and they have

What I meant to say was that all stations west of Chichester should have been included in both Victoria - Portsmouth services (hence 2tph for Fishbourne, Bosham, Nutbourne, Warblington and Bedhampton)

 

[PGAT]

What I meant to say was that all stations west of Chichester should have been included in both Victoria - Portsmouth services (hence 2tph for Fishbourne, Bosham, Nutbourne, Warblington and Bedhampton)

That would just cause longer journey times and less resilience for turning around at Portsmouth Harbour, for very little benefit

 

[PTR 444]

That would just cause longer journey times and less resilience for turning around at Portsmouth Harbour, for very little benefit

Ahh okay. In that case I will accept the skip-stopping, particularly as that would justify my case for doing the same to the Southampton - Brighton services. For me personally I would alternate Woolston/Portchester, Emsworth/Southbourne, Ford/Angmering and Southwick/Portslade, bringing the total number of intermediate calls in those services down to 15.

 

[weeklycommuter]

What I meant to say was that all stations west of Chichester should have been included in both Victoria - Portsmouth services (hence 2tph for Fishbourne, Bosham, Nutbourne, Warblington and Bedhampton)

Of those five Fishbourne has the strongest case as it is the site of the largest Roman Palace in Britain which has a lot of visitors so the station is not just used by residents. I cannot see any justification for Bosham, Nutbourne and certainly not Warblington having more than 1tph and Bedhampton, which has 4% of the footfall of Havant Station is only 15 minutes walk from Havant Station, is already served by the hourly SWR Portsmouth and Southsea to London Waterloo via Guildford slow train so I do not think it is necessary for any Victoria-Portsmouth Harbour trains to call at Bedhampton.

 

[PGAT]

Of those five Fishbourne has the strongest case as it is the site of the largest Roman Palace in Britain which has a lot of visitors so the station is not just used by residents. I cannot see any justification for Bosham, Nutbourne and certainly not Warblington having more than 1tph and Bedhampton, which has 4% of the footfall of Havant Station is only 15 minutes walk from Havant Station, is already served by the hourly SWR Portsmouth and Southsea to London Waterloo via Guildford slow train so I do not think it is necessary for any Victoria-Portsmouth Harbour trains to call at Bedhampton.

Pre-pandemic Fishbourne was getting 67,724 annual passengers and will get 1tph. I don't know a single station of that size that gets any more.

 

[PedroHav]

It seems that the long distance services along the south coast will take longer having to substitute for the Littlehampton - Portsmouth stopping service being withdrawn.

I'm sure a lot of travellers would prefer a semi fast service along the as has been highlighted in other posts.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm sure a lot of travellers would prefer a semi fast service along the as has been highlighted in other posts.

While that is true, Southern are using the resources that used to provide the Littlehampton to Portsmouth services to benefit more people further east.

It is all a matter of compromises.

 

[London Trains]

It seems that the long distance services along the south coast will take longer having to substitute for the Littlehampton - Portsmouth stopping service being withdrawn.

I'm sure a lot of travellers would prefer a semi fast service along the as has been highlighted in other posts.

It's not too much of an issue since very few people from Victoria will be travelling past Chichester, so only people travelling between Portsmouth and Horsham, Gatwick or Croydon would be slightly inconvenienced.