Speculation - Stagecoach Yorkshire after SYMCA franchising

[Teapot42]

While we don't currently know what path they are going to take, it looks like SYMCA will introduce franchising, and will most likely be taking over all existing depots within the Authority area.

That would leave Stonegravels as the only Stagecoach Yorkshire depot - and it's in Derbyshire.

Assuming this does come to pass, what is likely to happen? While it could revert to being part of Stagecoach Midlands, it strikes me that it would maybe be better to split Worksop and Mansfield depots off from that grouping and form Stagecoach Derbys and Notts? (Not the other way around to avoid confusion with the Wellglade company) Services such as the 77 and Pronto already fall in to the remit of such a grouping, and Stonegravels is taking on more tendered work in the south of the county.

There is scope to expand as a joint operation, maybe fast services between Chesterfield and Nottingham, maybe taking on Trent in some areas, maybe even a Chesterfield to Chatsworth to Buxton service to complement the Peak Sightseer?

Is the depot large enough to stand alone? I don't know the group operations outside of the North well enough to know if there is precedent for such a small stand-alone operation.

And please - bear in mind this is just speculation. We don't even know for sure such a split will be necessary, and while I'm sure it's been discussed internally as they would be remiss not to consider all risks to the business, any decision will come later and will be confidential until closer to the time.

 

[ALEMASTER]

Thinking back to the public consultation, it looked like the planned path SYMCA intend to take is based on the Manchester model where the local authority own the buses and depots, set the timetables, routes and fares then award an operating contract for groups of services. One slight difference is there will be some smaller contracts where small operators using their own buses and depots can bid - examples here may be a school service or a rural minibus service.

An interesting thing from the consultation is many of the cross border services from Sheffield into Derbyshire are proposed to be controlled by the South Yorkshire Mayor and be included in franchise contracts - this includes services operated by Stagecoach's Chesterfield depot such as the 43/44 and 50/50a and also Hulleys buses like the 257 and 272 - as well as those currently operated from Sheffield depots like the TM Travel 218.

You are right that with all the other Stagecoach Yorkshire depots being taken over by SYMCA it would leave them only with Stonegravels, although the Yorkshire business would still be winder if they win franchises, however the Yorkshire bit of the name isn't really publicly used as a brand so I don't suppose it really matters.

Incidentally I wonder if the East Midlands Mayor will start to look at bus franchising at some point in the future....

 

[Teapot42]

An interesting thing from the consultation is many of the cross border services from Sheffield into Derbyshire are proposed to be controlled by the South Yorkshire Mayor and be included in franchise contracts - this includes services operated by Stagecoach's Chesterfield depot such as the 43/44 and 50/50a and also Hulleys buses like the 257 and 272 - as well as those currently operated from Sheffield depots like the TM Travel 218.

It's a question I asked at the consultation and which so far hasn't been answered. Are they actually going to be part of the franchise contracts, or will there be input / support but they remain commercial services. After all, many of these services run more mileage in Derbyshire, and have support from DCC. I'd also be quite surprised if there weren't legal challenges from operators outside the SYMCA area if they were denied access for long established routes.

I wonder if there is a parallel with the High Peak 199. I'm not sure what input TfGM have in this, but it wasn't franchised when other services were.

You are right that with all the other Stagecoach Yorkshire depots being taken over by SYMCA it would leave them only with Stonegravels, although the Yorkshire business would still be winder if they win franchises, however the Yorkshire bit of the name isn't really publicly used as a brand so I don't suppose it really matters.

I guess that's one point - unless there is something in the franchise agreement that prevents it, should they win any awards then they can still share management and admin between depots.

Incidentally I wonder if the East Midlands Mayor will start to look at bus franchising at some point in the future....

It's already been mentioned. I can see it being a negative for Chesterfield to be honest - we'd have been better in the SYMCA franchising system. Indeed had the Tories at Matlock not scuppered things Chesterfield did vote to join SYMCA. We have much stronger social and economic ties to Sheffield than to any other part of Derbyshire.

 

[Hyebone]

I wonder if there is a parallel with the High Peak 199. I'm not sure what input TfGM have in this, but it wasn't franchised when other services were.

Which makes me wonder. According to Warrington's own buses, they packed in the X5 because they couldn't come to an agreement with TfGM. The 199 seems to have survived the franchising ordeal albeit with some minor timetable changes. If SYMCA go ahead with their current plans, they might be able to find some sort of agreement with Stagecoach similar to High Peak

 

[mangad]

Which makes me wonder. According to Warrington's own buses, they packed in the X5 because they couldn't come to an agreement with TfGM. The 199 seems to have survived the franchising ordeal albeit with some minor timetable changes. If SYMCA go ahead with their current plans, they might be able to find some sort of agreement with Stagecoach similar to High Peak

in Greater Manchester, I think almost all cross border services that came from outside the county were grandfathered in. X5 was an exception as it was subsidised by both TfGM and Warrington Council. It was (apparently) the subsidy matter that caused it to be withdrawn.

There may be other subsidy complications in the future with other routes. The 394 is currently subsidised by Derbyshire and TfGM. It's a service tendered by Derbyshire so it's outside the Bee Network, and the contract runs until 2027. What happens then is another question.

The 199 is operated out of High Peak's depot in Derbyshire, so was always going to be exempted from franchising. However prior to franchising it had some subsidised journeys including some short runs between Stockport and the Airport. The short runs have gone, and it appears to be a fully commercial service now.

If South Yorkshire do the same as Greater Manchester, then they'd franchised services running out of a depot within South Yorkshire, and that aren't services subsidised by another council (another example from Greater Manchester is the 391/392/393 that are Cheshire East tendered services, run by Belle Vue from their depot in Stockport.). They may well come to an agreement to franchise bigger routes coming in from outside the county, but suspect they'll find it very challenging to franchise a whole depot that's based outside the county.

Stagecoach may well decide to open discussions on some of their routes though. Who knows! But there's a wide variety of experience to learn from, and new scenarios to be discovered.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

While we don't currently know what path they are going to take, it looks like SYMCA will introduce franchising, and will most likely be taking over all existing depots within the Authority area.

That would leave Stonegravels as the only Stagecoach Yorkshire depot - and it's in Derbyshire.

Assuming this does come to pass, what is likely to happen? While it could revert to being part of Stagecoach Midlands, it strikes me that it would maybe be better to split Worksop and Mansfield depots off from that grouping and form Stagecoach Derbys and Notts? (Not the other way around to avoid confusion with the Wellglade company) Services such as the 77 and Pronto already fall in to the remit of such a grouping, and Stonegravels is taking on more tendered work in the south of the county.

There is scope to expand as a joint operation, maybe fast services between Chesterfield and Nottingham, maybe taking on Trent in some areas, maybe even a Chesterfield to Chatsworth to Buxton service to complement the Peak Sightseer?

Is the depot large enough to stand alone? I don't know the group operations outside of the North well enough to know if there is precedent for such a small stand-alone operation.

And please - bear in mind this is just speculation. We don't even know for sure such a split will be necessary, and while I'm sure it's been discussed internally as they would be remiss not to consider all risks to the business, any decision will come later and will be confidential until closer to the time.

I would assume that Stonegravels will revert to East Midlands and that any cross-boundary routes that SYMCA wish to take responsibility for will be operated from elsewhere.

 

[Teapot42]

I would assume that Stonegravels will revert to East Midlands and that any cross-boundary routes that SYMCA wish to take responsibility for will be operated from elsewhere.

If SYMCA do move the cross-boundary runs to another depot then the question becomes whether Stonegravels is viable at all. There appear to be 26 diagrams involved on the X17 / 42 / 43 / 44 / 50 which is a decent proportion of the total for the depot.

 

[317 forever]

It's a question I asked at the consultation and which so far hasn't been answered. Are they actually going to be part of the franchise contracts, or will there be input / support but they remain commercial services. After all, many of these services run more mileage in Derbyshire, and have support from DCC. I'd also be quite surprised if there weren't legal challenges from operators outside the SYMCA area if they were denied access for long established routes.

I wonder if there is a parallel with the High Peak 199. I'm not sure what input TfGM have in this, but it wasn't franchised when other services were.

I guess that's one point - unless there is something in the franchise agreement that prevents it, should they win any awards then they can still share management and admin between depots.

It's already been mentioned. I can see it being a negative for Chesterfield to be honest - we'd have been better in the SYMCA franchising system. Indeed had the Tories at Matlock not scuppered things Chesterfield did vote to join SYMCA. We have much stronger social and economic ties to Sheffield than to any other part of Derbyshire.

It would be funny if the Mayors of South Yorkshire and East Midlands both decided they wanted to introduce bus franchising, but they both insisted the Sheffield - Chesterfield services remain part of their own network - or even eachother's network with neither wanting the routes themselves.

 

[JD2168]

Some of the issues mentioned at Chesterfield depot would also affect the following:
Barnsley depot: 59 Barnsley to Wakefield & 28/28C Barnsley to Pontefract
Stagecoach East Midlands:
21/22/25 Doncaster to Worksop.
29/99 Doncaster to Retford.
98 Doncaster to Gainsborough.
399 Doncaster to Scunthorpe.

Also other operators affected would be:
Globe Holidays:
96/96a/96b/96c Barnsley to Wakefield
97 Woolley Grange to Wakefield
94 Barnsley to Denby Dale
198 Barnsley to South Elmsall/Hemsworth
39 Barnsley to Pontefract
Hornsbys 399 Doncaster to Scunthorpe

South Pennine with a number of cross boundary services
TM Travel with the 218 & others