Starting bell signals

[Regeff]

It was definitely Guildford. The driver openly said he never repeated bell signals - the report is worth a read; the Appendix to it covers the use of the bell codes and their repetition.

Report on the Collision that occurred on 19th August 1976 at Guildford in the Southern Region British Railways :: The Railways Archive

Archive of UK railways documents

www.railwaysarchive.co.uk

I'm from SR land, travelled extensively on SR trains and can clearly recall hearing the buzzer acknowledgement of the bell signal. Equally, I can remember non-acknowledgement too.

 

[D6130]

During my time as a guard at Brighton (1983-87) I can remember only a handful of drivers who acknowledged the guard's bell signals. After I moved to the Isle of Wight, none did....as the class 485/486 units (LT 1923-31 Standard tube stock) did not have provision for drivers to respond. However, on transfer to Aylesbury a couple of years later, I discovered that all the drivers on the first generation DMUs - from both Aylesbury and Marylebone depot's - repeated the guards' buzzer signals.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

As mentioned up thread the driver would use the loudaphone button I believe, but if this was pushed/hit twice in succession too fast it could render the signal not being heard as intended in the van, either just a 'one' or nothing. Interesting comment in that report of Guildford derailment. It states the train in platform 4 was 'set back' (correct in one sense, having come Down from Waterloo) but if it was going to the Up Yard sidings, was it 'propelled' back I wonder? Propelling of EMU stock was still quite common at that time I believe, and at some date (can't remember when) this was barred and every move had to be driven from the leading cab.

 

[stadler]

Right up until 2018 on the Southern 455s the Guard would give the Driver two bells and the train then departed. There was no repeat from the Driver so it was just a simple two bells from the Guard and the train left. This was because all of the door controls and the bell in the front cab are completely inactive when the Guard has his key switched on in the rear cab. The bell button in the front cab does not work when the Guard has his key in the rear cab so the Driver had no way to repeat the bell back.

This finally finished in 2018 when the 455s were withdrawn from the Dorking to Horsham and Leatherhead to Guildford and Clapham Junction to Shepherds Bush routes and as a result the Southern 455s no longer had Guards any more.

On the SWT 455s the Drivers are always able to give two on the bell in return so i think they may have been modified decades ago to allow this but the Southern ones never were.

Another thing about the Southern 455s is that they were one of the few trains that could obtain interlock and run with the rear cab door left open. Right up until 2018 it was very common on hot summer days to see Guards keep the cab door wide open on the Mole Valley trains. A few other trains allow this (i think the SWT 455s may do too) but Southern seemed to have a very relaxed attitude about this compared to other TOCs who strictly banned this.

I think these days there are no longer any trains where the Driver does not repeat the bell codes that the Guard gives. Although i am not sure how it works on the Caledonian Sleeper and Night Riviera trains. I doubt the locomotives have bell buttons to return the signal.

 

[Recessio]

It's a while since I travelled on slam door trains on the southern (I started my working days commuting on what's now south eastern), but I have an idea that the starting signal was repeated by the driver using the driver - guard communication system (loudaphone?) rather than the same bell system the guard used.

I also remember the occasional journey where the driver gave a single 'honk' just before starting from a station - not sure if this would have been an old rule book way of doing it, or to deal with the communication system being faulty, ot just an odd habit of one or two drivers.

This 1982 clip from Thames News, at 01:40, shows two bells from the Guard. Driver doesn't respond with a bell, but gives a single 'honk' as they depart.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Although i am not sure how it works on the Night Riviera trains. I doubt the locomotives have bell buttons to return the signal.

Guard uses either his flag or lamp to give RA to the driver. The drivers either waves his hand,gives a white light or more commonly gives a blast on the horn to acknowledge.

 

[Rescars]

Guard uses either his flag or lamp to give RA to the driver. The drivers either waves his hand,gives a white light or more commonly gives a blast on the horn to acknowledge.

Are there still locations with RA plungers on the platforms?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Are there still locations with RA plungers on the platforms?

Several but you need station staff present to use them and many stations are unmanned that time of night. Guards,for obvious reasons shouldn`t press them themselves .

 

[Regeff]

The Guildford mishap was a typical combination of minor events conspiring together to cause a much more serious event.

 

[TEW]

On the SWT 455s the Drivers are always able to give two on the bell in return so i think they may have been modified decades ago to allow this but the Southern ones never were.

Drivers cannot use the signal bell on 455s to return the guard's signal. It has to be done via the cab-to-cab/ intercom.

 

[CarrotPie]

Another thing about the Southern 455s is that they were one of the few trains that could obtain interlock and run with the rear cab door left open. Right up until 2018 it was very common on hot summer days to see Guards keep the cab door wide open on the Mole Valley trains. A few other trains allow this (i think the SWT 455s may do too) but Southern seemed to have a very relaxed attitude about this compared to other TOCs who strictly banned this.

The 319s can too, I believe?

Guard uses either his flag or lamp to give RA to the driver. The drivers either waves his hand,gives a white light or more commonly gives a blast on the horn to acknowledge.

A blast on the horn? On a sleeper?

 

[Ashley Hill]

A blast on the horn? On a sleeper?

Well,more of a quick toot in reality. Nothing that would wake anyone one up from their slumber.

 

[stadler]

Drivers cannot use the signal bell on 455s to return the guard's signal. It has to be done via the cab-to-cab/ intercom.

So on the SWT 455s the Drivers do not return two bells either? I must be wrong but i always presumed that SWT had modified them when they got refurbished?

 

[TEW]

So on the SWT 455s the Drivers do not return two bells either? I must be wrong but i always presumed that SWT had modified them when they got refurbished?

Nope. Only on the IC, not the actual bells. There's no signal bell on the drivers desk. When they ran in multiple with 456s the actual bell could be used when being driven from the 456.

 

[Tester]

It was definitely Guildford. The driver openly said he never repeated bell signals - the report is worth a read; the Appendix to it covers the use of the bell codes and their repetition.

Report on the Collision that occurred on 19th August 1976 at Guildford in the Southern Region British Railways :: The Railways Archive

Archive of UK railways documents

www.railwaysarchive.co.uk

I'm from SR land, travelled extensively on SR trains and can clearly recall hearing the buzzer acknowledgement of the bell signal. Equally, I can remember non-acknowledgement too.

Definitely worth a read - thank you.

1976 is after my time of living on the Southern. Does anyone know if there was a tightening up of adherence to repetition after the accident?

It does seem rather amazing that such a situation could persist for so long with nothing said!

 

[trebor79]

I've heard one long buzz as the train starts, telling the driver to stop immediately - I think there was a door still open.

Witnessed that about 35 years ago at Lenzie. 1st generation DMU, 2 buzzes and it set off. I forgot how or why but a small child then fell between the train and the platform edge. One buzz, train stopped sharpish. Guard retrieved the child, helped dust him down, then they set off again. Whole incident over in less than a minute. No doubt these days it would have taken considerably longer to sort out.
Sometimes wondered if the child would have been less fortunate had it been one of the then new Sprinter units which are a bit quicker off the mark.

 

[Regeff]

Witnessed that about 35 years ago at Lenzie. 1st generation DMU, 2 buzzes and it set off. I forgot how or why but a small child then fell between the train and the platform edge. One buzz, train stopped sharpish. Guard retrieved the child, helped dust him down, then they set off again. Whole incident over in less than a minute. No doubt these days it would have taken considerably longer to sort out.
Sometimes wondered if the child would have been less fortunate had it been one of the then new Sprinter units which are a bit quicker off the mark.

And on Sprinters (and other "modern" units) the guard closes his door before giving the start signal and would probably be unaware of an incident such as the one you saw - on first generation units, the guard would have been standing at his open door when giving the start signal, with a full view of the platform.

 

[The exile]

Many thanks.

It will be interesting to hear from other parts of the country.

Definitely acknowledged on the WR.

 

[Ashley Hill]

And on Sprinters (and other "modern" units) the guard closes his door before giving the start signal and would probably be unaware of an incident such as the one you saw - on first generation units, the guard would have been standing at his open door when giving the start signal, with a full view of the platform.

The joy of 150/1 units with slam cab doors was you could still stand in the open door and give the start signal,until H&S got chirpy about it. You can still look out of the sliding window!

 

[Efini92]

Many thanks.

It will be interesting to hear from other parts of the country.

In the north west, When I started a lot of the old hand drivers never repeated the buzzer. I believe it was down to them driving loco hauled for many years before everything was switched to DMU’s.

 

[Taunton]

Propelling of EMU stock was still quite common at that time I believe, and at some date (can't remember when) this was barred and every move had to be driven from the leading cab.

Goes back to the standard Southern Railway suburban units, where 8-car formations were formed of two 3-car electric units, with a 2-coach cabless trailer set in between them. Quite why they did this inconvenient approach rather than just having two 4-car units is a separate discussion (and some were reformed like this at the end), but an 8-car train would arrive at the end of the peak, the outer 3-car set would be uncoupled to form the next departure, and the remainder thereafter go to the sidings, with the 2-car trailer set foremost, being driven from the electric unit behind it.

Propelling stock was normal then on the railway. How else did trains get into terminal platforms for departure without a locomotive trapped at the buffers?

 

[Efini92]

Goes back to the standard Southern Railway suburban units, where 8-car formations were formed of two 3-car electric units, with a 2-coach cabless trailer set in between them. Quite why they did this inconvenient approach rather than just having two 4-car units is a separate discussion (and some were reformed like this at the end), but an 8-car train would arrive at the end of the peak, the outer 3-car set would be uncoupled to form the next departure, and the remainder thereafter go to the sidings, with the 2-car trailer set foremost, being driven from the electric unit behind it.

Propelling stock was normal then on the railway. How else did trains get into terminal platforms for departure without a locomotive trapped at the buffers?

That reminds me of a story. The driver was propelling into Southport, a young secondman was looking back out of the window. The driver said “why are you looking out of the window” the secondman replied “I’m looking for the guards red lamp to stop” the driver responded by saying “he won’t do that, he’ll just open the brake valve at the back” as they were propelling the driver was thinking, we don’t usually go this far. Then they felt the jolt when the train hit the buffers. When they walked back the guard said “did you not see my lamp”