Steam train stoker

[Mw36817@gmail.]

Hi, I’m doing some research on my great uncle who I believe was a stoker on the steam trains , could anyone tell me what was the average age of a stoker in the mid 50s early 60s . Thank you

 

[30907]

Hi, I’m doing some research on my great uncle who I believe was a stoker on the steam trains , could anyone tell me what was the average age of a stoker in the mid 50s early 60s . Thank you

On the railway they were called firemen

Firemen started young (as cleaners) and by the end of steam they were promoted rapidly owing to staff shortages. It would depend on the area a bit, but you might have a load of 18-25 year olds and relatively few older ones by then.

Someone else will know more, especially if you know what area!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Welcome to the forum. Here in the UK the 'stoker' was/is known as a 'Fireman'. As 30907 has just mentioned, after the war and onwards in to the 50/60's staff shortages, particularly for what were seen as dirty/heavy jobs, meant chaps who were pretty young would often find themselves 'on the shovel' as a 'passed' fireman, basically an engine cleaner (the first step in the footplate grade) who was deemed competent enough to be allowed to fire out on the main line before being promoted to fireman. Could be late teens in many cases.

 

[Gloster]

However, the opposite could also apply. There were depots, particularly small ones in country areas, where the firemen were in their thirties or older as promotion could be slow (dead men’s shoes) unless they were prepared to move. If they didn’t want to leave their town, they might have to wait until a driver retired: if the driver was only a bit older that might mean a long wait. By the late 1950s this was less common, but it still occurred.

 

[6Gman]

My father joined the railway in 1947 as a Cleaner (aged 23 - unusually old, but he'd been away sorting out Mr Hitler); was quickly promoted to Passed Cleaner* then Fireman. Became a Passed Fireman by early 1960s (so aged around 38). Promoted to Driver in 1966 (aged 42) but had to move for the position.

So a Fireman from c.25 to 38 (but would have been longer if he'd stayed at Llandudno Junction, possibly mid-40s).

* A Passed Cleaner was Cleaner grade but able to cover Fireman duties when required; a Passed Fireman could cover Driver duties when required.

On summer Saturdays at a shed like Llandudno Junction there would only be a skeleton staff of Cleaners - every Passed Cleaner would be covering a Fireman duty, to release Passed Firemen to cover extra Driver turns.

 

[furnessvale]

Welcome to the forum. Here in the UK the 'stoker' was/is known as a 'Fireman'. As 30907 has just mentioned, after the war and onwards in to the 50/60's staff shortages, particularly for what were seen as dirty/heavy jobs, meant chaps who were pretty young would often find themselves 'on the shovel' as a 'passed' fireman, basically an engine cleaner (the first step in the footplate grade) who was deemed competent enough to be allowed to fire out on the main line before being promoted to fireman. Could be late teens in many cases.

My brother was a passed cleaner at age 17 and there is a photo of him in Treacey's "Routes to the North" book, wedged tight in the fireman's seat on a 2P piloting a Britannia at speed from Carlisle to Preston!

They had just piloted another train from Preston and his driver, when offered the immediate return trip without a break, grabbed it for the mileage money!

 

[778]

However, the opposite could also apply. There were depots, particularly small ones in country areas, where the firemen were in their thirties or older as promotion could be slow (dead men’s shoes) unless they were prepared to move. If they didn’t want to leave their town, they might have to wait until a driver retired: if the driver was only a bit older that might mean a long wait. By the late 1950s this was less common, but it still occurred.

At the end of steam would have there been any fireman born in the 1950s?

 

[Taunton]

I'm surprised, as I do seem to recall that the loco department did not take staff until they were age 18, resulting in keen types who had left school having to work as station porters etc for a few years until eligible. Maybe this was just a GWR/Western Region thing. Furthermore, National Service in the military was in force for those aged 17 until 1960, meaning that it wasn't until one was aged 18 or 19 that you were back from this, though those who had worked for the railway at time of call-up were assured of a position somewhere when they returned.

 

[Gloster]

At the end of steam would have there been any fireman born in the 1950s?

Possibly. I have read of seventeen year-old passed cleaners firing, so someone born in 1950. could have made it. However, with redundancies there would have been plenty of surplus staff, so the chances would be that they were cutting numbers and filling vacancies with redundant men. But, yes, just possible.

 

[Roger1973]

A couple of disconnected thoughts -

While the official term was 'fireman' I understand that 'stoker' was used informally in some areas until the end of steam days - there's a reference to this in M Jackman's book on the Bricklayers Arms branch.

National Service only covered men born before 1 October 1939 (more here) although some men were still entering national service until 1960 if they had deferred (as was allowed) their start in order to complete an apprenticeship / course of study.

 

[Route115?]

As a matter of interest, was there are any difference between a passed fireman and relief driver?

 

[Gloster]

As a matter of interest, was there are any difference between a passed fireman and relief driver?

A passed fireman was a fireman who had passed the tests needed to be a driver, but had yet to be given a permanent post in the drivers’ links, so he remained in the firemen’s ones. I am not sure in what sense you are using the term Relief Driver. One sense is where the driver hands over the loco to another driver, who will continue the loco’s working. Another possible meaning is a driver in a link, probably only at larger depots, which has no permanently allocated workings, just signing on times (which can be shifted back or forward a bit according to agreements) after they which they work ’As directed’; or they can be rostered a couple days in advance for a job that is uncovered. It would quite likely be the bottom link containing those who have finally got a permanent driver’s post. Relief driver in this usage might well be informal.

 

[Route115?]

A passed fireman was a fireman who had passed the tests needed to be a driver, but had yet to be given a permanent post in the drivers’ links, so he remained in the firemen’s ones. I am not sure in what sense you are using the term Relief Driver. One sense is where the driver hands over the loco to another driver, who will continue the loco’s working. Another possible meaning is a driver in a link, probably only at larger depots, which has no permanently allocated workings, just signing on times (which can be shifted back or forward a bit according to agreements) after they which they work ’As directed’; or they can be rostered a couple days in advance for a job that is uncovered. It would quite likely be the bottom link containing those who have finally got a permanent driver’s post. Relief driver in this usage might well be informal.

I'm not really certain myself, I've seen the term in a few historical documents. It was a grade a not to be confused with relieving another driver in diagrams. I've always assumed that a relief driver was qualified to act as a driver but not yet appointed as such (the same as a passed fireman). I was wondering if it was used with second men in electrified areas. Mind you this over forty years ago when I was a trainee and my memory may be playing tricks.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I'm not really certain myself, I've seen the term in a few historical documents. It was a grade a not to be confused with relieving another driver in diagrams. I've always assumed that a relief driver was qualified to act as a driver but not yet appointed as such (the same as a passed fireman). I was wondering if it was used with second men in electrified areas. Mind you this over forty years ago when I was a trainee and my memory may be playing tricks.

Must admit I've never heard of the term 'Relief Driver' in the sense of a specific grade within the driving ranks/links. There use to be drivers who were shown 'spare' on certain shifts/days, to cover any unexpected events, be it sudden sickness, service disruption etc., 'Relief' (in my experience) only being used as a planning/rostering term to describe one driver relieving another during the course of a train's planned diagram, if that makes sense.

I'm surprised, as I do seem to recall that the loco department did not take staff until they were age 18

From my understanding, 18 was the minimum age anyone working round the clock (all three shifts in basic terms) could be allocated to any such work. That said I was appointed B grade signaller when I was still 17, but without saying too much, think someone in staff clocked that, and my actual move was delayed a tad, but was still made before my 18th...!

PS: talking of 'Relief' staff. Signalling was a grade where we had a specific 'Relief' staff/term, and worked with a few chaps within that grade, all very decent types.

 

[6Gman]

I was involved in traincrew diagramming from c.1978 to c.1996 and don't ever recall the term "Relief Driver" being used in any context other than "you'll be relieved by a Saltley man" or, where a driver was for example on a loco within an engineering possession, "your relieving driver (and the term "relief driver" might sometimes have been used) will take over at 0430" or similar. In grades such as signallers and station staff there would be "Relief" staff who would cover an area rather than a specific location. But never heard of "Relief Driver" as a formal term or grade.

 

[Gloster]

One further though is whether, at some depots, they tried to put all the Spare turns in one link, although there are obvious problems with this, including the need to learn and retain Route Knowledge for everything the depot worked. Even then Relief Driver would probably be an informal name: Link ? or Spare Link would be more likely.

 

[6Gman]

One further though is whether, at some depots, they tried to put all the Spare turns in one link, although there are obvious problems with this, including the need to learn and retain Route Knowledge for everything the depot worked. Even then Relief Driver would probably be an informal name: Link ? or Spare Link would be more likely.

I think there were such arrangements at larger depots. At Crewe it was known as "the block" and they would cover extra work (reliefs, excursions, engineering) and sickness/leave absences within the link structure. My father spent over ten years at Crewe without ever entering a specific Link; he was always on "the block". He preferred it as it offered lots of variety, but it did require huge route and traction knowledge! He could literally work a named train to Euston or Carlisle on Monday, DMUs/EMUs backwards and forwards to/from Derby or Liverpool on Tuesday, oil tankers to Rowley Regis on Wednesday, a trip working to Middlewich on Thursday, and a shift sitting in the Booking On Point as a spare man on Friday. He hated being spare!

In the early 1950s the number of turns on "the block" ranged from 85 to 106 sets according to time of year. Which brings us back to Passed Firemen and Passed Cleaners who would be stepped up at peak times.

 

[Taunton]

David L Smith's book on the Glasgow & South Western Railway 100 years ago tells of delayed day services from London to Glasgow arriving at Kilmarnock too late for the last connection to Ayr, so if there were long distance passengers for there, and beyond, a 2P 4-4-0 and a couple of coaches were given to a spare passed cleaner and a passed fireman, to go as far as needed. Wheeee! Express passenger work at last, and no restraining timetable! Following some complaints from passengers about speeds through junctions etc, the signalbox times were examined. You can imagine the rest, to control this happening again ...

 

[Pigeon]

Another possible meaning is a driver in a link, probably only at larger depots, which has no permanently allocated workings, just signing on times (which can be shifted back or forward a bit according to agreements) after they which they work 'As directed'; or they can be rostered a couple days in advance for a job that is uncovered.

I've seen it used in that sense in accident reports, but only very rarely and it seems to be far from universal. The context is wondering whether the driver's route knowledge wasn't up to scratch, and suchlike.

 

[The Crab]

I think there were such arrangements at larger depots. At Crewe it was known as "the block" and they would cover extra work (reliefs, excursions, engineering) and sickness/leave absences within the link structure. My father spent over ten years at Crewe without ever entering a specific Link; he was always on "the block". He preferred it as it offered lots of variety, but it did require huge route and traction knowledge! He could literally work a named train to Euston or Carlisle on Monday, DMUs/EMUs backwards and forwards to/from Derby or Liverpool on Tuesday, oil tankers to Rowley Regis on Wednesday, a trip working to Middlewich on Thursday, and a shift sitting in the Booking On Point as a spare man on Friday. He hated being spare!

In the early 1950s the number of turns on "the block" ranged from 85 to 106 sets according to time of year. Which brings us back to Passed Firemen and Passed Cleaners who would be stepped up at peak times.

Control Specials would also use "spare" crew.

 

[Strathclyder]

David L Smith's book on the Glasgow & South Western Railway 100 years ago tells of delayed day services from London to Glasgow arriving at Kilmarnock too late for the last connection to Ayr, so if there were long distance passengers for there, and beyond, a 2P 4-4-0 and a couple of coaches were given to a spare passed cleaner and a passed fireman, to go as far as needed. Wheeee! Express passenger work at last, and no restraining timetable! Following some complaints from passengers about speeds through junctions etc, the signalbox times were examined. You can imagine the rest, to control this happening again ...

You could fill out an entire thread about stories like this from the Glasgow & South Western (a good chunk of them from David's book I imagine!), truly was like the Wild West down there in that era.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Wasn’t a relief Driver someone who had passed the MP12 Drivers course and had to work 100 turns as a Driver before being ‘made up’ to the grade? In between those 100 turns they would continue to be utilised as a Secondman?