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Stopping short at Tottenham Hale with a promo ticket

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XmaX

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I am travelling to London from Cambridge later today. GA is currently running a promo in which off-peak day return tickets on this route are £10 return. I purchased a ticket to Liverpool Street, however I intended to leave the train at Tottenham Hale (slightly easier tube connection to where I want to go), and then return from Liverpool Street.

I have only now realised that the ticket does not in fact allow short stopping or break of journey. How likely is it that the gate staff would actually allow me to leave the station? And if they tell me that I can't exit, would I be able to just stay on the platform and take the next GA train to Liverpool Street (which in fact arrives 3 minutes later)? I'd assume that this would be allowed, as I would not leave the station and the ticket is not an advance and allows to take any GA off peak train to my destination.
 
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yorkie

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Yes, in the unlikely event that they ask you to pay an excess fare to exit the station, you could simply continue your journey to Liverpool Street using the ticket.

Ae you wanting to finish your rail journey at TOM or do you want to use the tube from there?
 

TheEdge

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If you are adopting the attitude of you can ask but if they say no "its a fair cop" and hoping on the next train to Liverpool Street I would be shocked if you had any issues.
 

XmaX

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Yes, in the unlikely event that they ask you to pay an excess fare to exit the station, you could simply continue your journey to Liverpool Street using the ticket.

Ae you wanting to finish your rail journey at TOM or do you want to use the tube from there?
Taking the tube. Need to get to Leicester Square/Piccadilly Circus, and going there from Tottenham Hale would save a few minutes (and would be slightly cheaper as I then pay an off-peak tube fare instead of peak).
 

yorkie

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Ok. I'm not sure what the situation is at TOM at present; I think there are separate gatelines (NRE suggests so, bit I think there is some building work going on?).

At some stations there aren't separate gatelines for interchanging, so the matter wouldn't arise if interchanging and using a standalone Oyster/CPC reader. I don't think this is the case at TOM unfortunately.
 

CyrusWuff

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Passed through TOM a few weeks ago and GA have put a separate gateline in alongside the down platform, with the direct access from the footbridge to the Ticket Hall closed off.
 

Ediswan

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Passed through TOM a few weeks ago and GA have put a separate gateline in alongside the down platform, with the direct access from the footbridge to the Ticket Hall closed off.

This is permanent, and it is a wretched nuisance. Every morning, multiple southbound trains disgorge hundreds of passengers headed for the tube. They used to be able to go over the bridge and straight ahead for the tube.

Now they have to perform an additional S-turn down some more stairs. Followed by approaching the national rail gateline from the end, which makes it impossible to see which gates are open. Of course, everybody wants to get through the nearest gate they can. Next is a small maze to get get back up to the LU ticket hall, where there is a second end-on gateline. Finally at the escalators.

I go that way 2-3 time a month. The layout at Tottenham Hale is so bad, that if there is time to spare, I prefer to carry on to Liverpool Street.

If anybody knows the actual reason for this monstrosity, please do tell.
 

miami

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Wouldn't intending to break the conditions of the ticket to make a financial gain be fare evasion or even fraud? OK if he's intending to ask regardless - but what if the gates are open and he walks through without asking? The moment he steps outside the station without permission wouldn't that be breaking the journey and thus against the ticket conditions, at the very least a bylaw?
 

Merseysider

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Wouldn't intending to break the conditions of the ticket to make a financial gain be fare evasion or even fraud? OK if he's intending to ask regardless - but what if the gates are open and he walks through without asking? The moment he steps outside the station without permission wouldn't that be breaking the journey and thus against the ticket conditions, at the very least a bylaw?
No, no and no.

If any staff take issue to this, all Xmax can be required to pay is the difference to the cheapest walk-up ticket which allows break of journey. The end.
 

D6700

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Wouldn't intending to break the conditions of the ticket to make a financial gain be fare evasion or even fraud? OK if he's intending to ask regardless - but what if the gates are open and he walks through without asking? The moment he steps outside the station without permission wouldn't that be breaking the journey and thus against the ticket conditions, at the very least a bylaw?

What an accusatory and very unhelpful response. Hopefully, they won't encounter anybody like you, whatever their course of action. It is this sort of post that discourages me and others from even reading this section.

They bought the ticket in good faith, but subsequently discovered there were some additional restrictions on top of what they expected. Arguably, this is their own fault, as the terms are available to see, but given the tickets are being marketed as off peak day returns, additional restrictions would not necessarily be expected.

The "no break of journey" restriction is well hidden, as it is contained at the end of the section "Are any journeys excluded from this offer?", which is primarily about blocking use solely within London and to/from airports. I can't find any reference to not being able to terminate a journey short. Additionally, in the section "Are there any other restrictions?", it states "Normal off-peak return restrictions apply" and "You don’t have to keep to booked trains, but you do need to remain within the time restrictions."

I would also suggest that the poster was intending to make a journey to "London", rather than Liverpool Street station in London. In the case of a big city like London, I would expect it is quite common for people to use different stations in each direction.

The reason given for wanting to terminate short was a slightly easier onward Underground journey. The additional benefit of a cost saving was with regard to that Underground journey - nothing to do with the journey to London with Greater Anglia, for which the fare is the same to either station anyway.

As it happens, the cost saving on the Underground doesn't exist anyway! From Liverpool Street, the cost is £2.40 Oyster/Contactless and £4.90 cash at any time, whilst from Tottenham Hale, it is £2.80 off peak or £3.30 in the morning peak for Oyster/Contactless and £4.90 cash at any time.

I will add that these specific promotion tickets are very confusing. Despite being clearly marketed as flexible off peak day returns, on Monday, when I bought one from London to Harwich Town, the ticket printed as "Advance Single" with "Outward Coupon 1 of 2" and "Return Coupon 2 of 2" and no reservations, just the phrase "Valid on Greater Anglia services only".

As I was using reservable Norwich trains to/from Manningtree, I was fully expecting to be asked for my (non-existent) reservations. As I had plenty of time to spare, I went to a ticket office counter at Liverpool Street station and asked them. The first person I spoke to didn't know anything about the tickets, so called across a colleague, who told me not to worry and that it would be fine as "these tickets are off peak returns" (despite no reference to that on the ticket) and (incorrectly) "you can't reserve trains on that route, so there's no issue". In the event, on my outward train, the guard barely even looked at my ticket, whilst on the return, there was no ticket check at all, so it was all moot!
 

Puffing Devil

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What an accusatory and very unhelpful response. Hopefully, they won't encounter anybody like you, whatever their course of action. It is this sort of post that discourages me and others from even reading this section.

Completely agree, and with the rest of the post, though I cut that for brevity.
 

yorkie

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Wouldn't intending to break the conditions of the ticket to make a financial gain be fare evasion or even fraud? OK if he's intending to ask regardless - but what if the gates are open and he walks through without asking? The moment he steps outside the station without permission wouldn't that be breaking the journey and thus against the ticket conditions, at the very least a bylaw?
Firstly, if permission is given then there is no issue.

Secondly, the rule is that if the customer wishes to break their journey when not permited, the company can charge an excess fare up to the price of the appropriate (not full) cheapest fare that would have permitted the actual journey made. I've never actually heard of this procedure being carried out, though. If the company wanted to make such a charge, the customer can choose not to break their journey, and simply board the next train to Liverpool St.

It is not an issue of fraud. People come here for advice. If you wish to ask questions of this nature, we are of course happy to answer, but please do so in a new thread, to avoid confusion.
 

plcd1

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This is permanent, and it is a wretched nuisance. Every morning, multiple southbound trains disgorge hundreds of passengers headed for the tube. They used to be able to go over the bridge and straight ahead for the tube.

Now they have to perform an additional S-turn down some more stairs. Followed by approaching the national rail gateline from the end, which makes it impossible to see which gates are open. Of course, everybody wants to get through the nearest gate they can. Next is a small maze to get get back up to the LU ticket hall, where there is a second end-on gateline. Finally at the escalators.

I go that way 2-3 time a month. The layout at Tottenham Hale is so bad, that if there is time to spare, I prefer to carry on to Liverpool Street.

If anybody knows the actual reason for this monstrosity, please do tell.

I agree it is cumbersome but it is here to stay. Even in the planned rebuild of the ticket hall there will be two gatelines facing each other because of the plan to re-use the existing footbridge to give a street access to Hale Village. This means there has to be unpaid area between the two gatelines. Madness I know but that's architects and client briefs for you. A new paid area footbridge with lifts will be built a bit further north up the NR platforms.

I think the reason was Abellio (and DfT) wanting to secure their revenue. Patronage has gone through the roof at T Hale and having open access there plus at lots of other stops up the line was almost certainly too big a "hole" to be sustained. Far too much money at risk given the fares to Stansted. I also suspect there were issues with Oyster validation as you needed to re-validate in the AGA area if you'd left the tube. Given there were only two validators and both in awkward locations it must have been hell for people needing to touch in/out for AGA and then do it all again for LU's gateline. Now it's just a different sort of hell! The whole place is far too small - it struggles off peak as people crowd certain parts of the narrow platforms.

Imagine how it will be if Crossrail 2 is built? Unsurprisingly no one has published even an outline plan for what CR2 will do to the station nor how it fits with what LU intend to start building shortly.
 

jkdd77

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This has been discussed before, but, IMO:
1) if a BoJ restriction on an otherwise flexible ticket was not made clear at or before the point of purchase, such that a passenger who had taken reasonable care to be aware of relevant conditions was not aware of it at the point of entering into the contract for travel, then;
2) it is arguable that such a restriction does not then form part of the contract for travel and is unenforceable.

In this case, as far as I can tell, the restriction is not mentioned on the main webpage advertising this promotional fare, and the promotion FAQs state:
Are there any other restrictions?
Normal off-peak return restrictions apply...[snip]
However, the detailed ticket conditions do indeed mention this restriction, albeit not especially prominently.
 
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PeterC

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Given there were only two validators and both in awkward locations it must have been hell for people needing to touch in/out for AGA and then do it all again for LU's gateline.
The first time that I ever used the station was to change to the tube during the evening peak in the days before the present barrier line. In the crowd the validators were totally invisible and I ended up being charged a maximum fare fare. In those days we had ticket offices and it only took me a couple of minutes the next day to get my Oyster account sorted.
 

MikeWh

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In those days we had ticket offices and it only took me a couple of minutes the next day to get my Oyster account sorted.

It would still only take a couple of minutes for the staff in the ticket hall using their special menu on the ticket machines.
 

319321

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I purchased one of these tickets myself and used it yesterday. I will agree that in the small print, it does say no break of journey allowed.

However, the tickets are being advertised in general as being "Weekday off-peak return tickets" and unless one reads the small print it is a fair assumption that break of journey would be allowed. The tickets themselves are issued as advance tickets with no reservations and a restriction code of B4.

I believe this is unusual (advance type tickets (not walk-up tickets bought in advance) but no reservations or individual train restrictions.

I think that it would be fairer to consumers to advertise them as being 'off-peak flexible advance return tickets, as the word advance is the one that is associated with break of journey restrictions.

Mine (from Rochford to Thorpe le Soken) did allow me out at Colchester but I had to be asked to be let back in (I wasn't breaking my journey, I was using the machine at Colchester to pick up another advance ticket I had ordered).

I would suggest that in most cases, given that there was no loss in revenue to Greater Anglia the ticket examiner would be mean to charge you an excess fare. However he can. As there is no individual train restriction in association with your ticket, you are allowed to continue your journey to Liverpool St if you would rather not pay the excess.
 

Haywain

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It would still only take a couple of minutes for the staff in the ticket hall using their special menu on the ticket machines.

Or by phoning the Oyster helpline, in my experience.
 

PeterC

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Or by phoning the Oyster helpline, in my experience.
They aren't much good at adjusting the balance on the card while you wait in my experience.

Also using a ticket office is quick and easy, tracking down the elusive gateline staff isn't.
 

amateur

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What time were you travelling?

If you have a NSE does it not cost £16.00 to buy a super off peak day travelcard valid on AGA only after 12:00pm?

No restrictions on weekends.
 
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I cant imagine that the ticket barrier staff at Tottenham Hale would have any problems letting you through. Most of them probably wouldnt be aware or wouldnt care that you arent allowed to break your journey. Its not like you are a fare evader.

You could always get off at Northumberland Park (no Ticket Barriers there) and walk to Tottenham Hale which is about a 15 minute walk. Although it is not the nicest area (especially at night).

Also does anyone have a link with more details about these tickets? I cant seem to find anything on the AGA website. I presume that they have to be booked in advance?
 

XmaX

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Thanks for all the input. Did the journey, the gate staff at Tottenham Hale didn't say a word and opened the gates for me without an issue.

Also does anyone have a link with more details about these tickets? I cant seem to find anything on the AGA website. I presume that they have to be booked in advance?
It appears that the promo only ran until yesterday. Either way, 319321 wrote about the tickets in more details. They could only be purchased online, but unlike advanced fares, there was no deadline for buying them as is the case with advanced tickets. I bought mine 15 minutes before the train departure. In the GA mobile app, there was no word on the break of journey/short stopping. It was visible when searching for a fare via a desktop site, which is how I discovered the restriction.

The reason given for wanting to terminate short was a slightly easier onward Underground journey. The additional benefit of a cost saving was with regard to that Underground journey - nothing to do with the journey to London with Greater Anglia, for which the fare is the same to either station anyway.

As it happens, the cost saving on the Underground doesn't exist anyway! From Liverpool Street, the cost is £2.40 Oyster/Contactless and £4.90 cash at any time, whilst from Tottenham Hale, it is £2.80 off peak or £3.30 in the morning peak for Oyster/Contactless and £4.90 cash at any time.
That is actually not correct for my journey. Essentially, I had 4 options to make this journey (Cambridge to Oxford Circus). Please not I have a 16-25 Railcard and an Oyster with the NR discount applied.
  • OPTION 1 (which I took, but technically not allowed): Promo Cambridge - Liverpool Street £10, TOM-Oxford Circus £1.85, Oxford Circus-Liverpool Street £1.60. Total = £13.45
  • OPTION 2: Promo Cambridge - Tottenham Hale £10, TOM-Oxford Circus £1.85, Oxford Circus-Liverpool Street £1.85. Total = £13.70
  • OPTION 3: Promo Cambridge - Liverpool Street £10, Liverpool Street-Oxford Circus £2.40 (this was at 6pm, so Zone 1-1 is classed as peak, but Zone 3-1 as off peak), Oxford Circus-Liverpool Street £1.60. Total = £14
  • OPTION 4: Super Off-Peak Day Return Cambridge - Liverpool Street £10.90, TOM-Oxford Circus £1.85, Oxford Circus-Liverpool Street £1.60. Total = £14.35
  • OPTION 5: Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard - £15.85
So, by taking the technically-not-permitted Option 1, it could be argued that I either caused a loss of £0.25 to the London Underground, or £0.90 to Greater Anglia.

Firstly, if permission is given then there is no issue.
I'm by no means a fare expert, but does that mean that if the permission is given by staff, then the law or byelaw is not broken?

Five years ago, before I lived in Cambridge, I had to come to Cambridge from London for a day. However, my plans changed while I was in Cambridge, and I had to stay overnight. At the time, I wasn't very knowledgeable about tickets and fares, so approached the gate staff with the return portion of my original ticket and was allowed to go through. Boarded the non-stop train to King's Cross, ticket was not checked during the journey (it almost never is on that route). On arrival to KGX, gates didn't let me out, but I had an Oyster Travelcard at the time, and used that to exit the station. Later that day, I discovered that my ticket was in fact a day return, and I had actually fare evaded the whole journey. However, I was given permission by the gate staff, so was there no issue then as well?
 
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greatkingrat

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I'm by no means a fare expert, but does that mean that if the permission is given by staff, then the law or byelaw is not broken?

Five years ago, before I lived in Cambridge, I had to come to Cambridge from London for a day. However, my plans changed while I was in Cambridge, and I had to stay overnight. At the time, I wasn't very knowledgeable about tickets and fares, so approached the gate staff with the return portion of my original ticket and was allowed to go through. Boarded the non-stop train to King's Cross, ticket was not checked during the journey (it almost never is on that route). On arrival to KGX, gates didn't let me out, but I had an Oyster Travelcard at the time, and used that to exit the station. Later that day, I discovered that my ticket was in fact a day return, and I had actually fare evaded the whole journey. However, I was given permission by the gate staff, so was there no issue then as well?

I think there is a difference between someone actively giving you permission to travel on a technically invalid ticket, and someone just waving you through without really looking at the ticket at all.
 
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