Swiping on and off on a bus journey where the bus changes route number and destination midway

[Seehof]

Here in York we have a Transdev route 24 which is currently integrated with their 25 and 26 routes.
This only occurs on route 24 in one direction by the way these 3 routes work which is from Acomb to Fulford via York station and the city centre. The return journey is only from York to Acomb whereby the route number does not change.
From Acomb to the station the bus route number is 24, but from the station to Fulford it renumbers to the 26 and announces itself as going to Fulford.
Various people have found out that if you swipe on in Acomb or anywhere before the station and swipe off after the bus has changed its route number, you get charged twice despite the fact you have remained on the same bus. You get charged £2 for not having swiped off the 24 and then the appropriate fare from the station onwards on bus route 26 as it has now become. In other words you have paid two fares for one journey on the same bus one of which will be £2!
Are there any other routes in the country with this issue/problem that folk are aware of? Here Transdev have been made aware of this although none of their York drivers seem to know about it!

 

[richw]

If it’s two seperate routes then it would be correct to be charged twice unless there’s a local arrangement stating otherwise.

£2 for route 24 from where you board to its terminus, and £2 for route 26 from its start point to where you get off.

Where I drive if a bus inter works multiple routes there are no through ticketing available. The passenger has to buy a new ticket where the route changes to the next route

 

[Seehof]

But in the case of York’s 24 it could be argued that the bus’s terminus point is the same place as it where it starts going back in the operation direction. Therefore you get charged 2 fares for going into central York but only one for exactly the same journey but in the opposite direction!

 

[stevieinselby]

Why would you swipe off when it's a flat fare?
Surely the only reason to swipe off is to show that you have made a shorter journey than the maximum fare...

 

[Seehof]

Exactly and the fare should be £1.60!

So currently it is £3.30 to go into York but £1.60 return if you swipe on and off!!!

£2 plus £1.30 short journey from station to Piccadilly!

 

[etr221]

If it’s two seperate routes then it would be correct to be charged twice unless there’s a local arrangement stating otherwise.

£2 for route 24 from where you board to its terminus, and £2 for route 26 from its start point to where you get off.

Where I drive if a bus inter works multiple routes there are no through ticketing available. The passenger has to buy a new ticket where the route changes to the next route

That I would say should only be the position if they are two separate routes, with a bus making two separate journies - between which it is a case of 'all change - everybody off'.

But - IIUC - the issue here is that the bus is working through, and is at one point both a 24 at the end of its journey, and a 26 at the start so a case one trip, one journey, and I would say one fare...

 

[richw]

That I would say should only be the position if they are two separate routes, with a bus making two separate journies - between which it is a case of 'all change - everybody off'.

But - IIUC - the issue here is that the bus is working through, and is at one point both a 24 at the end of its journey, and a 26 at the start so a case one trip, one journey, and I would say one fare...

If it’s a 24 and then a 26 unless advertised as through journey with through ticketing available then it’s 2 routes and two seperate tickets at any company I’ve worked for

 

[Seehof]

I understand and agree in a way with the logic of this - in that case the route number change should be at exactly the same place (York Piccadilly) as where the bus starts its return journey otherwise, as I have said before, the fare for exactly the same journey is £3.30 one way and £1.60 for the return. The problem with this is that the bus is not displaying the appropriate route or destination as it travels through York city centre (26 Fulford). Never mind this is likely to completely change when the route is changed and retendered soon.

 

[Man of Kent]

I understand and agree in a way with the logic of this - in that case the route number change should be at exactly the same place (York Piccadilly) as where the bus starts its return journey otherwise, as I have said before, the fare for exactly the same journey is £3.30 one way and £1.60 for the return. The problem with this is that the bus is not displaying the appropriate route or destination as it travels through York city centre (26 Fulford). Never mind this is likely to completely change when the route is changed and retendered soon.

Once the ticket machine is changed to a new trip (even on the same route) then all previous data is effectively lost and another tap will be treated as a new [or incomplete] journey. Whether the tendering authority has realised this is another matter....

 

[etr221]

So we have a system which isn't fit for purpose and is overcharging passengers...

 

[richw]

So we have a system which isn't fit for purpose and is overcharging passengers...

Except it’s charging them correctly. Seems many passengers have been underpaying for many journeys

 

[dodecahedron67]

It is a situation where a previous (however unofficial) agreement between drivers and customers has been undone by technology

It is really not that much of a stretch to simply not tap out when getting off in Piccadilly, or tap off "early" at the Station which solves this whole problem

 

[Seehof]

Firstly, passengers are not underpaying their journey as the fare for the same journey when it does not change its identity is £1.60.
But of course neither the passengers or the drivers know about this. No way should people be charged £3.30 for a single journey into York. If people take an almost parallel First York service (1,5) the fare is £2.
It is a fault of the ticketing system and the weird way the 24/25/26 Transdev routes are operated and integrated.
I cannot believe there are not other situations like this or is this unique to York?

 

[AB93]

The through-service-one-way, two-sections-the-other has been a feature of the 24/25/26 for years, including previous holders of the contract. It's the most efficient way of running the services without requiring an extra bus for very little benefit.

The 24 runs through as a 24 from Piccadilly to Acomb, but on its return, stops short at the Rail Station to change into a 26, before continuing along the 24+26 route to Piccadilly (where it carries on its journey as a 26), effectively running both services at the same time on the overlapping section. This does not mean that passengers 'should be paying twice' - they are permitted to remain on board. To not be able to do so would be nuts for various reasons not least the passenger base of this infrequent, wiggling around the back streets for people that can't walk to the main road service are almost entirely heading for the City Centre shops and not the Rail Station, which is some way short of that.

The pdf timetables from Transdev's website clearly show the 24 towards the City Centre as a through journey to Piccadilly, proving this.
(The 09.37 24 from Acomb, arriving at the Rail Station at 10.10 becomes the 10.11 26 from the Rail Station, as today's trip history shows https://bustimes.org/vehicles/ycst-752-yw19vuh?date=2024-05-15).

So yes, the tap on tap off should be set up to allow the through journey without penalty, and this is possible to set up in Ticketer.

 

[Sheridan]

This happens on the 4 between Holyhead and Bangor - I made a thread about it when I first realised it was an issue. No £2 cap in place there.

Tapping on/off on routes with split registrations

I’ve noticed recently that on my local route, which is split registration (I think this is the term?) but operates as far as the passenger is concerned as a through journey, if my journey spans the two parts of the route, when I go to tap off I get a message saying ‘tap off invalid’. Is the...

www.railforums.co.uk

When I mention it to drivers they mostly seem unaware, indeed some invite me to try tapping on the tap-in pad as I leave the bus. I did that once and got charged again for the £4.60 day ticket, which Arriva declined to refund. I haven’t made that mistake again!

I can’t remember the exact prices but I think a single for my most frequent journey is £3.60 but as I can’t tap off I just get charged the £4.60 day ticket. Not the end of the world but irritating nonetheless.

Edit: I realise in the OP’s case, the number and destination both change. In this case the destination changes but the number sometimes stays the same, only changing sometimes (usually gaining or losing a letter).

 

[Seehof]

Thank you AB93 for your excellent reply. The 24/25/26 routes should be up for re tender now and this pattern of operation should change to two single end to end routes.
Incidentally, when I complained to Transdev on behalf of my wife first of all they wanted me to send in the tickets! Then they wanted me to supply full information including the number of the debit card and its security number on the back. I did not like the idea of giving them the security number so I refused. (Was this really necessary?!). They kindly refunded me £2 in the shape of a free ticket and said they would close the case.

 

[etr221]

If it was me I would be repeatedly claiming. If it was my credit/debit card I would also be in contact with the bank, over being overcharged and if (as reported) I was being asked for CVC code...

 

[GusB]

If it was me I would be repeatedly claiming. If it was my credit/debit card I would also be in contact with the bank, over being overcharged and if (as reported) I was being asked for CVC code...

It depends how you're asked to supply the details. If it was over the phone and I was certain I was speaking to someone in the organisation concerned, it wouldn't bother me; they're exactly the same details you'd be asked for if you were placing an order for something by phone, or making a payment with your energy supplier, etc.

If they were requesting those details by email or social media direct message then I'd certainly have concerns that the data might not be handled correctly.