SWR Carriage Working Notices

[Goldfish62]

One of the changes on the SWR website with the change of ownership is that the current carriage working notices have been published:

diagrams

www.southwesternrailway.com

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Diagrams​

FOI CWN SO

FOI CWN SO​

24 May 2025 to 19 July 2025
FOI CWN SU

FOI CWN SU​

18 May 2025 to 13 July 2025
FOI CWN SX

FOI CWN SX​

19 May 2025 to 18 July 2025

 

[cduncan]

Noticed that on the website. Pretty handy as sometimes tend to forget to bring my copy of those.

 

[nw1]

One of the changes on the SWR website with the change of ownership is that the current carriage working notices have been published:

diagrams

www.southwesternrailway.com

Interesting. I note there seem to be few if any 444s on Portsmouth via Eastleigh nowadays, whereas formerly they were quite common on that route.

 

[Eloise]

Noticed that on the website. Pretty handy as sometimes tend to forget to bring my copy of those.

Out of genuine curiosity, why do you carry them round and what for? We get a lot of FOI requests for things like this and no idea what people do with them.

 

[cduncan]

Out of genuine curiosity, why do you carry them round and what for? We get a lot of FOI requests for things like this and no idea what people do with them.

Working as a CSA at one of the stations. CSAs are given ACWNs only at weekends/bank holidays which highlight changes to train workings, platforms etc. I do understand ACWNs are also given to RO2s (dispatch) and Train Presentation.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I note there seem to be few if any 444s on Portsmouth via Eastleigh nowadays

Think 2Bxx Waterloo to Poole services in past times - they interworked with 1Ts at Waterloo, combined with an aspiration to provide a mix of both types on both routes.

 

[nw1]

Think 2Bxx Waterloo to Poole services in past times - they interworked with 1Ts at Waterloo, combined with an aspiration to provide a mix of both types on both routes.

Indeed, I remember the interworking was standard on Saturday when (IIRC) both routes were 100% 444, while Mon-Fri was around 50/50 444/450 and the patterns were less predictable. (I have a good number of CWNs from the later SWT era, salvaged from the now-defunct UK Modern EMUs group).

We need to bring back those 2Bxx services methinks to provide a regular half-hourly semi-fast as had existed since 1999. If off-peak travel is up to the levels of pre-Covid there seems to be little compelling reason to not provide a comparable off-peak service to the classic pattern. I wonder if this could be done relatively efficiently as the lack of a suitable available service to interwork with means presumably the 1Txx are not diagrammed particularly efficiently now. (I didn't look into all the interworking in great detail but did note some quite long layovers at Waterloo with little consistency hour-to-hour).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Working as a CSA at one of the stations

I only speak from past times, but presume you still have access to the Station Working books (assuming they are still produced?) which in effect use to (still do?) take much of their their information from proof copies of CWN's in advance of each timetable change, and formed the basis of permanent information as supplied to station teams. The CWN's in their basic sense were perhaps more inclined to be used by depots and anywhere stock was stabled, and also by NR for use by signallers etc. to format their simplifiers.
Everyone however, AFAIR, had access to the ACWN's of course.

 

[JonathanH]

Indeed, I remember the interworking was standard on Saturday when (IIRC) both routes were 100% 444, while Mon-Fri was around 50/50 444/450 and the patterns were less predictable. (I have a good number of CWNs from the later SWT era, salvaged from the now-defunct UK Modern EMUs group).

Is this about having more 444s on the Portsmouth Direct? I recall that there was a time when the Portsmouth Direct was nearly all 450s on a Saturday, which doesn't seem to be the case now.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Indeed, I remember the interworking was standard on Saturday when (IIRC)

A fairly easy remit for a Saturday service. Weekdays a different ball game. With peak hour formations to deal with and a greater use of all platforms (Waterloo), faster turn rounds in the peaks, combined with platform availability, wouldn't necessarily allow for standard pattern working - other than perhaps on the high frequency suburban side(s) - the main line group of platforms only really having a small window each day when some sort of standardisation might be possible - this was (talking past tense here) from about 11 a.m. until about 3 p.m., outside of those hours there were still movements associated with post a.m. peak and pre p.m. peak formations which would require a more complex plan. There were (are?) further complications within that four hour window each day, but don't wish to bore you with more.

Is this about having more 444s on the Portsmouth Direct? I recall that there was a time when the Portsmouth Direct was nearly all 450s on a Saturday, which doesn't seem to be the case now.

No.

 

[cduncan]

I only speak from past times, but presume you still have access to the Station Working books (assuming they are still produced?) which in effect use to (still do?) take much of their their information from proof copies of CWN's in advance of each timetable change, and formed the basis of permanent information as supplied to station teams. The CWN's in their basic sense were perhaps more inclined to be used by depots and anywhere stock was stabled, and also by NR for use by signallers etc. to format their simplifiers.
Everyone however, AFAIR, had access to the ACWN's of course.

The Station Working books are usually given out on each timetable change, Monday-Thursday CWN and then Fridays only CWN. I'm not sure how many copies are given out to us exactly but my guess is around 30-40. I think until December 2024, the Station Working books had some sort of cover but since then it's just the CWNs itself with the dates written at the top of the page. Some new copies (February 2025) were given out IIRC to reflect changes to allocations i.e. more 10 701s. Tbh I only knew CWNs since getting the CSA role last year.

 

[nw1]

Is this about having more 444s on the Portsmouth Direct? I recall that there was a time when the Portsmouth Direct was nearly all 450s on a Saturday, which doesn't seem to be the case now.

I see @Big Jumby 74 has answered this but yes, I travelled that way quite regularly at the weekend in the first half of the 2010s and clearly remember it was just about always 450s.

A fairly easy remit for a Saturday service. Weekdays a different ball game. With peak hour formations to deal with and a greater use of all platforms (Waterloo), faster turn rounds in the peaks, combined with platform availability, wouldn't necessarily allow for standard pattern working - other than perhaps on the high frequency suburban side(s) - the main line group of platforms only really having a small window each day when some sort of standardisation might be possible - this was (talking past tense here) from about 11 a.m. until about 3 p.m., outside of those hours there were still movements associated with post a.m. peak and pre p.m. peak formations which would require a more complex plan. There were (are?) further complications within that four hour window each day, but don't wish to bore you with more.

Indeed, we've discussed this before and it makes a lot of sense, I was just making the observation in passing rather than questioning why.

Was also the case in the CIG and VEP days, though at that time the rationale for specific irregular working patterns was easier to understand. There seemed to be a lot of "random" looking stuff in the earlier Desiro era (and even the 1100-1500 timeslot had plenty of deviations) though I believe, from previous discussions we've had, a lot of this was due to unit mileage constraints. One example I remember seeing in the CWN was a 12 450 coming in on a Poole semi-fast (2Bxx) running empty to Clapham, then a separate 12 450 coming in from Clapham to form the Portsmouth via Eastleigh 1Txx which would in the standard pattern have been formed from the incoming Poole.

Going back to the slam-door era, I seem to remember the 1999 timetable (the first with a high-frequency service, though different to the 2004 pattern) brought in a few things for the first time, such as 12-car formations out all day on some longer-distance services, and some irregularities such as diagrams (presumably) going to and from Clapham in the middle of the day. I spent the day at Woking one day in early June 1999 and did the same a couple of times in early autumn 1997. I seem to remember the diagramming in 1999 was harder to get my head round than that of 1997.

 

[Ian Hardy]

This morning I saw an SWR employee at the buffers end of platform 17 at Waterloo holding what looked very like the Waterloo pages of the CWN.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

unit mileage constraints. One example I remember seeing in the CWN was a 12 450 coming in on a Poole semi-fast (2Bxx) running empty to Clapham, then a separate 12 450 coming in from Clapham to form the Portsmouth via Eastleigh 1Txx which would in the standard pattern have been formed from the incoming Poole.

Not only unit mileage constraints, but there was also extreme pressure to reduce crew diagram costs, and these factors combined with an increase in patronage (at the time), but also the restraints of the (19) platforms at Waterloo at the time, would all have had an impact on decisions made in the planning process.
As regards the 12 car 450 swap (Waterloo to Clapham and back), I do vaguely remember that, but don't now have the documents that would allow me to answer the reason(s) for same.

As you have posted that detail and perhaps having caught the attention of others to question 'why' (etc?), I would welcome the chance to explain same.
If you have the entire perm (base plan) CWN for that period, and can let me have sight of, I may be able to answer the reasons for that move. But I would need the full document in order that I might be able to re-write (in the here and now) the diagrams of each of the six class 450's involved in order to understand what was done at the time. It may have been the result of unit mileage restraints, Waterloo platform restrictions, and/or something crew related, but to stand a knat's chance of answering, I need to have all the detail.

PS;

A follow up for nw1: ref previous post. The 12 car 450 swap was for CET (toilet tank) emptying purposes. The unit diagrams concerned if not swapped out, would have resulted in some of the units concerned not being serviced for longer than was required, so done for the benefit of the passengers.