SWR "Metro-style services for suburban services"

[Warrior2852]

I have been thinking about SWR's promises that they made after getting the franchise, and one of them was "metro-style services for suburban services", which I have always found to be a bit vague in meaning. Does it mean more frequent trains on lines that only have 2 tph? More stops, e.g. services that currently go direct from Surbiton to Wimbledon calling at stations in between? Or something else entirely? Does anyone know what they meant with this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly there is going to be an increase in frequency on the Waterloo to Reading services which are "metro like" in a way. I'd expect to also see more consistent stopping patterns and train lengths (and more robust, self-contained diagrams with less splitting and joining), as Southern have done.

 

[Warrior2852]

Certainly there is going to be an increase in frequency on the Waterloo to Reading services which are "metro like" in a way. I'd expect to also see more consistent stopping patterns and train lengths (and more robust, self-contained diagrams with less splitting and joining), as Southern have done.

Speaking of diagrams, are the current ones in any way publicly available, or do we just have to ask them on Twitter about individual services?

 

[swt_passenger]

There was also supposed to be a 4 tph on the Windsors but at the expense of through Weybridge services, but I don’t think it survived the timetable consultation. It’s still difficult to pin down exactly what they’ll end up with after all these months.

As I’ve suggested before, it is a bit stupid to put things in the DfT’s ITT service specification (aka the required timetable), then the new TOC announces that they’ll be happening, and then have yet another consultation and ultimately pull half the changes...

 

[swt_passenger]

Speaking of diagrams, are these in any way publicly available, or do we just have to ask them on Twitter about individual services?

Nothings available yet because it’s all deferred until at least May or even December 2019.

Oh, and Network Rail still need to upgrade the power supply on most routes.

 

[Warrior2852]

Nothings available yet because it’s all deferred until at least May or even December 2019.

Oh, and Network Rail still need to upgrade the power supply on most routes.

I didn't mean for the new timetable, I meant currently. I would be quite interested in some of the ones in use at the moment.

 

[swt_passenger]

I didn't mean for the new timetable, I meant currently. I would be quite interested in some of the ones in use at the moment.

Sorry, I thought you meant the current ideas for the revised timetable, as opposed to the pre consultation version.

I’ve never seen SWT or SWR actual diagrams for quite a few years, but the carriage working notices (CWNs) usually appear on the Yahoo group “UKmodernEMU”, they will allow you to trace units from service to service over the course of the day.

 

[Bookd]

The problem with a metro style service with consistent stopping is the delay to through trains.
I have Southern timetable from 1947 when in the peak some Reading trains were non stop from Staines to Waterloo (in 23 minutes) and some semi fast trains from Feltham were either via Hounslow only or non stop from Richmond.
The issue would be that these fast trains would need a clear path reducing the ability to run all stations locals.
If all trains were to cover all stops in the London area (metro style) it might be possible to run more trains but the extended journey time would not go well with those further out.

 

[Twotwo]

The trains on the up/down main slow run at full capacity I don't see how they can add another train in the timetable (bearing in mind during the peak there is an additional Epsom train). The Windsor line has more capacity to add services as there is a longer gap inbetween services even during the peak.

 

[jopsuk]

TfL regard "turn up and go" as 6tph. I'd suggest that a true "metro" service should be this, so that you don't worry about timetables, you just turn up to the station and for most trips, just get on the first train.

 

[NorthKent1989]

TfL regard "turn up and go" as 6tph. I'd suggest that a true "metro" service should be this, so that you don't worry about timetables, you just turn up to the station and for most trips, just get on the first train.

6tph is a good deal for many inner suburban services a train roughly every ten mins, sadly though there are still many suburban metro routes that are still 4tph (and 2tph on a Sunday!) the Victoria to Orpington route is this sort of service (sorry for mentioning a SE route on a SW thread)

 

[700007]

6tph is a good deal for many inner suburban services a train roughly every ten mins, sadly though there are still many suburban metro routes that are still 4tph (and 2tph on a Sunday!) the Victoria to Orpington route is this sort of service (sorry for mentioning a SE route on a SW thread)

TfL themselves have loads of services like that. Particularly on the London Overground network, where services such as the Lea Valleys are 4tph or even as low as 2tph. Obviously I understand the reasonings behind this. Even if Crossrail 2 materialises, the SW branches would probably not be more than every 15 or 20.

 

[swt_passenger]

TfL themselves have loads of services like that. Particularly on the London Overground network, where services such as the Lea Valleys are 4tph or even as low as 2tph. Obviously I understand the reasonings behind this. Even if Crossrail 2 materialises, the SW branches would probably not be more than every 15 or 20.

All the SW branches are 4 tph minimum all day according to their last proposals:
https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/crossrail2/october2015/user_uploads/g5.pdf

 

[Sean Emmett]

The problem with a metro style service with consistent stopping is the delay to through trains.
I have Southern timetable from 1947 when in the peak some Reading trains were non stop from Staines to Waterloo (in 23 minutes) and some semi fast trains from Feltham were either via Hounslow only or non stop from Richmond.
The issue would be that these fast trains would need a clear path reducing the ability to run all stations locals.
If all trains were to cover all stops in the London area (metro style) it might be possible to run more trains but the extended journey time would not go well with those further out.

Staines to Waterloo in 23 minutes? We can but dream!
I currently commute in from Ascot to Waterloo 3 days a week. Excruciatingly slow. Often an hour for the 29 miles. Used to be 40 minutes. Once timed it in 33 mins with 2 stops, incl Ascot to Richmond under even time. Another late running train was driven at full power down the bank from Whitton and went thro Twickers at 80+ - a tad lively! Back in the day (1988?).

Desiros and Junipers are an improvement on the VEPs from pax point of view, and they accelerate quicker. But dwell times much longer and lots more stops, hence so are overall journey times.

 

[JonathanH]

The problem with the line is that all the stations inside Ascot have some importance.

Prior to 2004, there were a few faster trains but the 2004 changes improved services no end in the suburban area to the detriment of people further West.

If you want an even fifteen minute frequency to all the stations between Clapham Junction and Twickenham and on the Hounslow line via Brentford, there is no scope for 'fast' trains.

There is similarly no scope for 6tph stopping all stations via Richmond - it is all a balance.

 

[nw1]

The problem with the line is that all the stations inside Ascot have some importance.

Prior to 2004, there were a few faster trains but the 2004 changes improved services no end in the suburban area to the detriment of people further West.

If you want an even fifteen minute frequency to all the stations between Clapham Junction and Twickenham and on the Hounslow line via Brentford, there is no scope for 'fast' trains.

There is similarly no scope for 6tph stopping all stations via Richmond - it is all a balance.

However what they could do is run two trains an hour from Ascot to Staines non stop where there are less stopping trains to conflict with, and serve the intermediate stations with the other two proposed trains an hour. That way there would only be (IIRC) five stops between Ascot and Waterloo, which was similar IIRC to how it was back in the day.

 

[Chris125]

TfL regard "turn up and go" as 6tph.

Unless it's changed TfL regard 4tph as the minimum for 'turn up and go', as specified in the London Overground Service Standards

• Train frequency of at least four trains per hour on each route where the infrastructure allows, up to 23:00'​