SWR Penalty Fare

[yc04]

Hi,

I'm looking for advice on a penalty fare that I recieved.

I had a ticket which I didn't realise had expired the previous day and so was out of date.
The thing is, I was let through the barriers at Portsmouth & Southsea by a member of staff anyway, so I assumed all was well.

I caught the 13:27 from PMS to Cardiff Central and changed at Salisbury for the train to Gillingham (Dorset).
A revenue protection officer asked for my ticket on the train before Tisbury but I quickly realise that there is only a return ticket for this journey. They ask if it is in my emails, which it is. However, it was expired by a day. For what it's worth, I thought the outward journey on a return ticket was valid for a month, just like it is for the return journey. They also checked my railcard, which was valid, and took my personal details.
The ticket itself was a Super Off-Peak Return with a 16-25 railcard. I had purchased it online from the SWR website two days prior.

I accept I should have checked the validity of the ticket. However I was still let through the barriers at PMS by a member of staff before I started my journey. Unfortunately I didn't note their name or badge or whatever info I need. I'm really quite peeved that they let me through to the platforms with an invalid ticket.

I have already gone through the first appeal, which was rejected. Is there any way I might get the correct information to appeal again?

 

[Snow1964]

The penalty is for an out of date ticket.

Note that penalties are for mistakes, rather than things like not buying tickets, or deliberately buying part route (short fare) or adults buying child tickets. All these get more serious threat of prosecution and fines or big settlement offers.

The penalty is a flat £100 (or £50 if paid within 21 days) plus cost of ticket.

It is not a defence that first person didn't spot the expired date so deemed you could travel, it's just a case got away with it at the gate, because they weren't diligent.

I am guessing you are upset because had it been pointed out at your departure station, the dead (unused at that stage) ticket could have been replaced by one for travel that day. Unfortunately it is your responsibility to buy correct ticket. Sorry if that sounds tough. On what grounds did you try and appeal.

 

[ikcdab]

Can you post your original appeal and the reply?

 

[yc04]

Yeah, I see that the penalty is for my mistake. I'm just wondering if there's anything I could do. I don't blame that member of staff for making a mistake like I did.

Here's my appeal:

I had booked a super off-peak return on the 20th May for the 23rd May. I did not realise the outward journey was valid only on a single day as I'd assumed it was the same as the outward journey, being valid for a month. The reference number for this ticket is: 56B6W5XC

I started my journey in PMS on the 13:27 for Cardiff Central, changed at SAL, got my notice around Tisbury and got off at GIL.

If I had known I would have changed my ticket at PMS, but I was let through the barrier by a member of staff after they looked at my ticket so I assumed it was valid.

I will be sure to check the validity of my tickets in the future.

And this is the the response:

Many rail users consider penalty fares to be an accusation of fare avoidance but this is not the case at all. A Penalty Fare is simply a higher fare which may be issued under The Penalty Fares Rules and Regulations by a member of staff who is licensed to act on behalf of a train operating company which issues penalty fares. Penalty fare warning posters are on display at every penalty fares station (as required under Regulation 8) advising customers of the consequences for boarding a penalty fares train without a valid ticket or other authority to travel in their possession.

The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare Notice.

I understand it was thought the ticket produced for inspection was valid for the journey made, however, that isn’t the case I’m afraid.

It remains the passenger’s responsibility to confirm that their ticket is valid for their entire journey they intend making before boarding the train. This also involves checking the date of travel, that the proposed route between the stations recorded on the ticket is valid, and any other restrictions which may apply to the use of that ticket on the rail network.

As the ticket produced for inspection was not valid for the date recorded on the penalty fare, regrettably it has been concluded by Penalty Services that the penalty fare should stand.

You have stated in your appeal that rail staff either advised you, or gave permission for you, to board the train using the ticket that you had shown. However we have been told by the train operating company that all staff have been trained not to give such incorrect advice or permission. In this case we can only accept this as mitigation for your appeal where proof has been provided that such permission was indeed given for you to board the train without a valid ticket to travel. As no such proof has been provided we cannot consider this as relevant for this case.

Having taken into consideration all the points raised to date, we regret to advise that your appeal has been unsuccessful.

 

[furlong]

So was this a ticket you printed, saying on it 'Valid from...until...' which you didn't read?

But shouldn't the penalty have been issued for £105.40?

Read the regulations then quote the bits relating to the "amount of penalty fare" 9(1A)(a), 9(2A) and "boarding station" 9(3)(a) then ref. 17(2)(b), 16(3)(a) etc.

 

[yc04]

Reading the booking confirmation, it does say to travel outward on the date shown (23rd of May). It's completely my bad for not reading this.

Thank you for the pointers in the regulations. Am I correct in saying that the boarding station for the train would be SAL and that a single to GIL would cost £5.40 making the PFN £105.40?

 

[SouthernOne]

It might be worth appealing on the basis that you travelled on a great Western railway service between Portsmouth and Salisbury, I don’t think SWR can penalty fare a customer that travelled on great Western service. I don’t think they have an agreement in place to do so. I might be wrong, but worth checking!

The 3rd appeal normally gets a more thorough check!

 

[yc04]

Thank you for pointing that out, it does seem the PFN amount has been determined by the whole journey rather than just the SWR leg. I'll do some reading on the regulations and see where that takes me.

I'll mention part of the journey was with GWR as well, thanks for the suggestion.

 

[JEC2304]

Hey can I ask how long it took to get a response to your first appeal? I’m in a similar(ish) position and contacted [email protected] but am yet to hear back.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hey can I ask how long it took to get a response to your first appeal? I’m in a similar(ish) position and contacted [email protected] but am yet to hear back.

Hi - this thread is about a Penalty Fare (PF) and IIRC I think that PF appeals are dealt with by an independent body than handles the appeal - so SWR railways prosecutions team would not be handling a PF appeal nor know how long it would take - you would need to contact the organisation on the Appeal related paperwork to ask about that.

Or have you not in fact received Penalty Fare? But instead been reported for investigation to SWR perhaps?

In any case these are the reasons why we ask people to start their own threads as each case can be different event if they seem similar - this is so people here can help you understand what has happened, what your options are, and what to do about them.

If you start your own thread and set out clearly what happened you will get good advice on what it is best to do.

 

[yc04]

Hey can I ask how long it took to get a response to your first appeal? I’m in a similar(ish) position and contacted [email protected] but am yet to hear back.

I appealed on the 24th May and they got back to me on the 2nd June - so about 9 days.

Edit: This was with Penalty Services, not [email protected]