Taking a Sold Journey Itinerary 'as Gospel'

[trainJam]

Please correct me if I am wrong - I have read many threads which contain the idea that if you book tickets with a retailer and a specific itinerary is provided (this can be any ticket type, not just advance) and you stick strictly to that journey itinerary, then (in theory) your itinerary is absolutely 100% valid and must be accepted for that specific journey with those tickets on that occasion - ie an itinerary does not always imply validity outside of the specific journey sold and it would not be acceptable to see the itinerary (e.g. check on National Rail Enquires), then walk up to the ticket machine (assuming the TVM is not an itinerary based one) and purchase the ticket from it.

Consequently, it may be possible (perhaps by means which some may not want to be shared to prevent loopholes being patched) to be sold a journey which is only valid exclusively because of the itinerary rule. Without the specific itinerary, it would not be valid (for instance, with an otherwise invalid route or time).

General Opinion
The system protects and reassures passengers who buy from a retailer - they can be certain that what they are doing is completely fine (notwithstanding the next section of discussion), without needing to manually check (routeing guide, restriction codes etc.).

On the other hand, it might perpetuate the idea that you should limit yourself to the itinerary given, even if you hold a more flexible walk-up, non-advance ticket.
I am looking at an example on an online journey planner where you can select multiple journeys which, according to the 'public facing' text (nre.co.uk/XX) on the 2 character ticket restriction code, should not be valid (I suspect it is because the 'unpublished restrictions ' (available on brfares) used by the computerised planner determine them as valid. In this case, you would be forced to choose to buy just one of these journeys, and it would not be permitted to switch to the other valid-but-not-valid itinerary, as the only thing validating the journey is the sold itinerary. The flexibility is lost - I appreciate that the opinion of some may be to just take it on the chin!

This system works better for advance tickets - after all, you have to stick to the booked trains anyways.

Some Questions

• In the case of buying from a ticket office (for whatever reason), is it possible to obtain a copy details of the sold itinerary (ie one which can be taken 'as gospel')?
• For the new itinerary based ticket machines, is it possible to obtain a copy of the details of the sold itinerary?
• Where does the itinerary rule come from? I cannot find it mentioned in the National Rail Conditions of Travel - the closest I can find is near the bottom of NRCOT 13.1:

The easiest way to check for valid routes is to use the journey planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk. You can also check the National Routeing Guide which is available at data.atoc.org routeing-guide or ask the Ticket seller when you buy your Ticket.

Challenged
I do not intend to sound all doom and gloom, but in the case where you have to defend yourself when being challenged, what would you do, say or show?
How would you correctly and succinctly argue your validity?

If you should fail to argue your case effectively, what should you do next in the immediate situation, for instance
a) at the gateline, where you are refused entry/exit by gateline or security staff,
b) on board a train, with the staff member looking towards getting you to pay more - be that an excess, or worse still, penalty actions or name and address, or eviction from the train etc?

Also, what actions (complaints, forms, compensation, claims etc) should you perform post-journey?

 

[Watershed]

Please correct me if I am wrong - I have read many threads which contain the idea that if you book tickets with a retailer and a specific itinerary is provided (this can be any ticket type, not just advance) and you stick strictly to that journey itinerary, then (in theory) your itinerary is absolutely 100% valid and must be accepted for that specific journey with those tickets on that occasion - ie an itinerary does not always imply validity outside of the specific journey sold and it would not be acceptable to see the itinerary (e.g. check on National Rail Enquires), then walk up to the ticket machine (assuming the TVM is not an itinerary based one) and purchase the ticket from it.

Consequently, it may be possible (perhaps by means which some may not want to be shared to prevent loopholes being patched) to be sold a journey which is only valid exclusively because of the itinerary rule. Without the specific itinerary, it would not be valid (for instance, with an otherwise invalid route or time).

This is correct. Strictly speaking I think the validity of itineraries provided when booking is a little wider; I would suggest you can rely on any other itinerary shown as also being valid with the same fare (e.g. an equivalent journey an hour earlier or later).

The difficulty lies more in proving this, since the selected itinerary will always be shown in your booking confirmation email, but others you didn't select won't be shown. I'd therefore suggest taking a screenshot/print to PDF of any itineraries you're relying on in your purchasing decision and potentially emailing this to yourself in response to the booking confirmation. That makes it easy to find if needed later, and provides clear contemporaneous evidence of the offered itineraries.

General Opinion
The system protects and reassures passengers who buy from a retailer - they can be certain that what they are doing is completely fine (notwithstanding the next section of discussion), without needing to manually check (routeing guide, restriction codes etc.).

On the other hand, it might perpetuate the idea that you should limit yourself to the itinerary given, even if you hold a more flexible walk-up, non-advance ticket.
I am looking at an example on an online journey planner where you can select multiple journeys which, according to the 'public facing' text (nre.co.uk/XX) on the 2 character ticket restriction code, should not be valid (I suspect it is because the 'unpublished restrictions ' (available on brfares) used by the computerised planner determine them as valid. In this case, you would be forced to choose to buy just one of these journeys, and it would not be permitted to switch to the other valid-but-not-valid itinerary, as the only thing validating the journey is the sold itinerary. The flexibility is lost - I appreciate that the opinion of some may be to just take it on the chin!

This system works better for advance tickets - after all, you have to stick to the booked trains anyways.

I agree - this is why, if flexibility as well as obtaining evidence of validity is important, I would follow the method described above. Clearly it's not ideal to have to be relying on this to travel in accordance with the information you're given, but you have to deal with the situation as you find it - not as you'd wish it to be!

Some Questions

• In the case of buying from a ticket office (for whatever reason), is it possible to obtain a copy details of the sold itinerary (ie one which can be taken 'as gospel')?

Yes; most (if not all) ticket office software is capable of printing itineraries. Given the datestamps and other metadata, I would have said this is strong evidence of having been provided with a given itinerary when booking, which you are relying on.

For the new itinerary based ticket machines, is it possible to obtain a copy of the details of the sold itinerary?

Not that I'm aware of. If you're selecting a train with reservations (even if only counted place) then of course you'd have those printed out. Otherwise I'd suggest it is better to book online or via an app so you have the booking confirmation. I suppose if push came to shove you could take a picture of the itinerary offered by the ticket machine in the basket/selection stage?

Where does the itinerary rule come from? I cannot find it mentioned in the National Rail Conditions of Travel - the closest I can find is near the bottom of NRCOT 13.1:

That clause clearly incorporates it by inference (at least as far as routes are concerned), but it's also a matter of contract and consumer law. If you select a particular itinerary it's clearly an implied term of the contract that you can use those trains; the 'officious bystander test' refers. Similarly, under consumer law (section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015), any statement that influences your purchasing decision becomes a term of the contract; again, if your decision to buy a particular ticket is influenced by the fact you're told it's valid on XYZ trains, that becomes a term of the contract.

Unfortunately these rather basic principles of law (which, in essence, reflect common sense) seem to be alien to some staff. You have to wonder how they go about their daily lives if they really believe a company can choose whether to uphold its end of the bargain!

Challenged
I do not intend to sound all doom and gloom, but in the case where you have to defend yourself when being challenged, what would you do, say or show?
How would you correctly and succinctly argue your validity?

I would simply refer to the itinerary (or other evidence) and say I'm travelling in accordance with what I've been told I should do when booking. I said that I want to travel from A to B and this is the ticket it sold, and these are the trains it suggested. How am I supposed to know any better - why should I second-guess it? I might also ask the member of staff what they would do in my shoes.

In reality though, if someone is poorly trained and of a particular mindset, often there is nothing that will convince them to change their mind. For some people it's also to do with feeling unable to 'lose face' once they've decided on a particular course of action.

If you should fail to argue your case effectively, what should you do next in the immediate situation, for instance
a) at the gateline, where you are refused entry/exit by gateline or security staff,
b) on board a train, with the staff member looking towards getting you to pay more - be that an excess, or worse still, penalty actions or name and address, or eviction from the train etc?

If it's within your financial means, I would pay whatever additional amount or fare is wrongly claimed to be due. Ideally you would use a credit card so that you don't need to carry the cost immediately and can hopefully be reimbursed before the statement balance is due - obviously, not everyone has the luxury of being able to access a credit card (or to trust themselves to use it).

I would try and take things in that direction in preference to having details taken, since the latter is more likely to lead to threats of prosecution etc. But at the end of the day the greater risk if being non-cooperative is that you could be threatened with having the BTP called (who would inevitably side with "Simon says", if they attend) - or, as happened in one case I am aware of, having your luggage thrown off the train. Fortunately, in the latter case the passenger ended up being well compensated!

Also, what actions (complaints, forms, compensation, claims etc) should you perform post-journey?

The first course of action would be to submit a complaint requesting reimbursement of any additional sums charged and/or an apology - of course we can assist with that if necessary. If a delay has been incurred as a result of incorrect refusals to accept a ticket as valid, a Delay Repay claim should be submitted. It may be best to claim Delay Repay in the text of the complaint, as online claim systems are unlikely to recognise the delay and will reject the claim.

 

[yorkie]

I do not intend to sound all doom and gloom, but in the case where you have to defend yourself when being challenged, what would you do, say or show?
How would you correctly and succinctly argue your validity?

It would depend on a huge range of circumstances/conditions.

If you should fail to argue your case effectively, what should you do next in the immediate situation, for instance
a) at the gateline, where you are refused entry/exit by gateline or security staff,
b) on board a train, with the staff member looking towards getting you to pay more - be that an excess, or worse still, penalty actions or name and address, or eviction from the train etc?

Also, what actions (complaints, forms, compensation, claims etc) should you perform post-journey?

Depends on what you want to achieve, how confident you are, how much time you have to spare (either in that moment or to chase it later).

If you bought the tickets from the forum site and used an itinerary which we provided, and were incorrectly denied travel or charged a new/excess fare, I will do my best to offer extra help.

 

[sheff1]

• Where does the itinerary rule come from? I cannot find it mentioned in the National Rail Conditions of Travel - the closest I can find is near the bottom of NRCOT 13.1:

For online purchases, it is stated on the National Rail website:

When you book your journey online, any ticket offered at that time in connection with the journey planner results will be accepted as a permitted route.

Buying a Train Ticket | National Rail

Want to know what train ticket types are available, the best prices, and where and when you can buy and use them? Then read on.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[trainJam]

Wonderful, thank you all for the advice!