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Tees Valley Combined Authority seeking consultant on options to replace West Dyke Level Crossing

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stuving

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Mod Note: Posts #1 - #20 originally in this thread.

Tees Valley Combined Authority* is advertising for someone to do a study on this crossing:
Tees Valley Combined Authority (TVCA) is seeking a consultant to carry out feasibility study. This feasibility work will consider whether there is an alternative to the current level crossing, including exploring whether a bridge can be built at West Dyke Road or at any alternative locations along the line.
Bids are due in by 5/9/24, and the study completion date is 30/5/25. (*Formal name of the contracting authority is "Tees Valley Combined Authority Group, and Teesside International Airport".)
 
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ainsworth74

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The only alternatives to the current level crossing would be so expensive that there would be a risk of to injury to HM Treasury officials due to the strength of laughter that would ensue if you were to ever ask for funding for them. Best we can do is make sure that the crossing gates are as reliable as possible preferably by changing to conventional crossing barriers once the box is shut and can be demolished.

There, saved us all a lot of time and money!
 

Darandio

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The only alternatives to the current level crossing would be so expensive that there would be a risk of to injury to HM Treasury officials due to the strength of laughter that would ensue if you were to ever ask for funding for them. Best we can do is make sure that the crossing gates are as reliable as possible preferably by changing to conventional crossing barriers once the box is shut and can be demolished.

There, saved us all a lot of time and money!

Demolish Morrisons and have some sort of weird spiral approach where the car park now sits. I detest our local branch of Morrisons these days so i'm entirely at peace with it's removal.
 

swt_passenger

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The only alternatives to the current level crossing would be so expensive that there would be a risk of to injury to HM Treasury officials due to the strength of laughter that would ensue if you were to ever ask for funding for them. Best we can do is make sure that the crossing gates are as reliable as possible preferably by changing to conventional crossing barriers once the box is shut and can be demolished.

There, saved us all a lot of time and money!
You ought to apply, should be able to stretch the job out for a few months, while coming up with that conclusion! :D
 

ainsworth74

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Demolish Morrisons and have some sort of weird spiral approach where the car park now sits. I detest our local branch of Morrisons these days so i'm entirely at peace with it's removal.
Oh yes I wouldn't morn it either (it always felt cramped to me compared to the other supermarkets in the area!) but Morrisons Ltd will no doubt ring as much money as possible in the compulsory purchase negotiation making the benefit:cost ratio look comical!
You ought to apply, should be able to stretch the job out for a few months, while coming up with that conclusion! :D

Well now you mention it that might not be a bad idea... :lol:
 

Gloster

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Perhaps Messrs Corney and Musgrave might put in a bid. I am sure that the Mayor would carefully evaluate how good value for money it was.
 

Fadacious

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What if they put in a vertical crossing? I think it'd fit right in with the vertical pier
 

TBY-Paul

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For me, there are Two possible solutions:-
Option A, Relocate the Cricket Club, widen Locke Road and bridge, and put a roundabout where the current Cricket Club is,towards Coatham Road end of the site.
Option B, Build a bridge on Redcar Lane using the land that is currently used as allotments?
Either solution would enabled the closure of the West Dyke Road crossing to be replaced with a footbridge and lift. Option B would also remove the crossing at Redcar Lane. Option A would have been easier before the college expanded into the field next to Locke Road.
 

ainsworth74

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For me, there are Two possible solutions:-
Option A, Relocate the Cricket Club, widen Locke Road and bridge, and put a roundabout where the current Cricket Club is,towards Coatham Road end of the site.
Option B, Build a bridge on Redcar Lane using the land that is currently used as allotments?
Either solution would enabled the closure of the West Dyke Road crossing to be replaced with a footbridge and lift. Option B would also remove the crossing at Redcar Lane. Option A would have been easier before the college expanded into the field next to Locke Road.
I would agree that those are the two options that are realistically available. But the problem I think remains that none of them are going to pass the cost:benefit test.

Option A requires purchasing a lot of land. You'll need to buy out the cricket club and the college's new sports pitch. The college might just take the money but I imagine the cricket club would only settle for enough money to buy themselves a new club! Then you need to build the bridge...

Option B is probably the cheaper of the two as you say it's just allotments in the land you need (probably, I'm not quite sure what the footprint of a bridge would be) but it'll still not going to be cheap and I imagine that the Council will want money to create replacement allotments. Then you need to build the bridge...

To be clear, I would love to see a replacement to West Dyke crossing, I just don't see how it ever passes financial muster when there are so many other calls on the public purse.
 

TBY-Paul

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I would agree that those are the two options that are realistically available. But the problem I think remains that none of them are going to pass the cost:benefit test.

Option A requires purchasing a lot of land. You'll need to buy out the cricket club and the college's new sports pitch. The college might just take the money but I imagine the cricket club would only settle for enough money to buy themselves a new club! Then you need to build the bridge...

Option B is probably the cheaper of the two as you say it's just allotments in the land you need (probably, I'm not quite sure what the footprint of a bridge would be) but it'll still not going to be cheap and I imagine that the Council will want money to create replacement allotments. Then you need to build the bridge...

To be clear, I would love to see a replacement to West Dyke crossing, I just don't see how it ever passes financial muster when there are so many other calls on the public purse.
The fact that it’s the TVCA, and not “just“ Redcar & Cleveland Council who are looking to find a solution, is quite telling, l think the funding will be found whatever is decided.
 

BrianW

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The fact that it’s the TVCA, and not “just“ Redcar & Cleveland Council who are looking to find a solution, is quite telling, l think the funding will be found whatever is decided.
Presumably the beneficiaries of Teesside development will have little difficulty at stumping up for this through a substantial Section 106 or Community Infrastructure Levy payment.
 

ainsworth74

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The fact that it’s the TVCA, and not “just“ Redcar & Cleveland Council who are looking to find a solution, is quite telling, l think the funding will be found whatever is decided.
It's certainly more encouraging than if it was just Redcar & Cleveland going for it but I still reckon HM Treasury will take one look at whatever results and collapse in laughter. I will certainly be happy to be proven wrong!
Presumably the beneficiaries of Teesside development will have little difficulty at stumping up for this through a substantial Section 106 or Community Infrastructure Levy payment.
Well they've certainly received healthy enough profits from the site to be able to bung some money towards this project...
 

Meerkat

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For me, there are Two possible solutions:-
Option A, Relocate the Cricket Club, widen Locke Road and bridge, and put a roundabout where the current Cricket Club is,towards Coatham Road end of the site.
Option B, Build a bridge on Redcar Lane using the land that is currently used as allotments?
Either solution would enabled the closure of the West Dyke Road crossing to be replaced with a footbridge and lift. Option B would also remove the crossing at Redcar Lane. Option A would have been easier before the college expanded into the field next to Locke Road.
Can’t you build a bridge underpass immediately parallel to the West, knocking down two unremarkable modern buildings as part of a wider redevelopment?
 

darloscott

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If money was no object then we should be looking at raising the rail line to be up in the air similar to what I saw in Melbourne (Australia) the other week. They’ve been building a massive project on their suburban lines removing level crossings and one of the stations I visited at Croydon they’d rebuilt the whole station and line on a flyover removing the level crossing there. Unreal what they’ve done, and I also spotted a sign suggesting it had finished a year early !

Either way, with ambitions to improve frequencies across the Tees Valley network, something will need to be done not just at West Dyke but also Redcar Lane, Longbeck and other level crossings too.
 

Bald Rick

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If money was no object then we should be looking at raising the rail line to be up in the air similar to what I saw in Melbourne (Australia) the other week. They’ve been building a massive project on their suburban lines removing level crossings and one of the stations I visited at Croydon they’d rebuilt the whole station and line on a flyover removing the level crossing there. Unreal what they’ve done, and I also spotted a sign suggesting it had finished a year early !

Yes that‘s a project that has been going on for over a decade and has cost billions. And it was done primarily to solve traffic issues rather than benefit the railway (although obviously it has done the latter).
 

paul1609

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Yes that‘s a project that has been going on for over a decade and has cost billions. And it was done primarily to solve traffic issues rather than benefit the railway (although obviously it has done the latter).
@railfan99 might have some insight
 

railfan99

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Yes that‘s a project that has been going on for over a decade and has cost billions. And it was done primarily to solve traffic issues rather than benefit the railway (although obviously it has done the latter).

90 per cent of the benefit of level crossing removals is to motorists.

It's often slower for rail passengers to reach their train: they must climb stairs/use a long ramp or lift to reach.

In Melbourne, many rebuilt stations were at ground level and hence easy to access (apart from level crossing gates shutting before a train was due, so you could be trapped on the wrong side) are now less convenient.

One strange problem for motorists with these level crossing abolitions is that where there were previously boom barriers and pedestrian gates to cross the railway, now there's a set of traffic lights for pedestrians to cross the road to access the railway station.

So sometimes the time saving for motorists is eliminated.

The projects are union controlled (aligned with Victoria's socialist Labor state government) and have typically run massively over budget, as has almost every other rail and road project. Victoria has the highest (and growing) debt of any Australian state, and the highest unemployment rate despite the government showering $$$ in every direction including on these infrastructure projects.

The design of stations vary: some are reasonably pleasing but others are a wasteland of concrete. When the rail line is placed underneath the road, and new cuttings created (stupidly now called 'trenches'), they use an ugly material called Shotcrete to line the vertical or angled walls. An affront to the eye.

In contrast, in booming Perth (Western Australia not Scotland), some newly created cuttings have been planted with Australian natives that bind the soil. Far more aesthetically pleasing.

When the rail lines are newly elevated, noise issues for residents result. One infamous case has apartments within five metres of trains, the latter on a viaduct:


Not all these level crossing removal projects have 'finished early': it's possible that construction timelines were deliberately conservative to make it easy for such claims to be aired.

By the way, Melbourne still has two at-grade level crossings in the suburbs of Kooyong (Glen Waverly line) and Riversdale (Alamein line) where trams cross. There were four, but two have been abolsihed with these level crossing removals, so if you'd like to see the two operating, don't wait 20 years to visit. This must be rare internationally.
 
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ainsworth74

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Can’t you build a bridge underpass immediately parallel to the West, knocking down two unremarkable modern buildings as part of a wider redevelopment?

Sure you can. How much you wanna pay to compulsory purchase those buildings? And what does that make the benefit:cost ratio look like?

There are plenty of ways of achieving the aim of removing West Dyke crossing. They all cost a lot of money and I'm doubtful any of them stack up financially. Though as I've said previously though I'm happy to be proven wrong!
 

Meerkat

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Sure you can. How much you wanna pay to compulsory purchase those buildings? And what does that make the benefit:cost ratio look like?

There are plenty of ways of achieving the aim of removing West Dyke crossing. They all cost a lot of money and I'm doubtful any of them stack up financially. Though as I've said previously though I'm happy to be proven wrong!
Exactly - all the options cost money so if you are spending do it nearest to the current crossing. Both buildings would be no loss to the area! Probably aren’t worth much and the area could then be redeveloped.
 

ainsworth74

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Exactly - all the options cost money so if you are spending do it nearest to the current crossing. Both buildings would be no loss to the area! Probably aren’t worth much and the area could then be redeveloped.
Sure, but the point is surely whether the money is worth spending in the first place! I agree that neither building is much of a loss. The one north of the crossing contains the local Jobcentre and a solicitor firm, both likely easy to relocate. The building to the south has a couple of business and a flat above. But is it worth the wonga? I come back to my view that when asked to spend millions (perhaps someone like @Bald Rick might be willing to have a guess at what replacing a crossing like this might cost?) in a Northern (and even worse, North Eastern) town like Redcar, HM Treasury will do themselves an injury laughing those asking for the money out of the room.

Perhaps TVCA think they have a pot of money available to do it hence why they're asking for options from a consultant. But considering HM Treasury want to sign off seemingly every penny of expenditure centrally I won't be holding my breath!
 

Bald Rick

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I come back to my view that when asked to spend millions (perhaps someone like @Bald Rick might be willing to have a guess at what replacing a crossing like this might cost?) in a Northern (and even worse, North Eastern) town like Redcar, HM Treasury will do themselves an injury laughing those asking for the money out of the room.

For that one, you‘d just put up a fence, plus a pedestrian / bike friendly footbridge, and send the traffic to the next crossing. That’s because it’s easier to build a road bridge at the next LX along (Redcar Lane), and one road bridge is normally enough to get rid of teo nearby road crossings. Even then, to do that, you‘d be looking at £50m+. Id also expect auite a fight with locals who would invariably want an underpass rather than a flyover (you certainly wouldnt want a flyover view out of your front windows), but due to the low lying ground an underpass may well have water table issues.
 

zwk500

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For that one, you‘d just put up a fence, plus a pedestrian / bike friendly footbridge, and send the traffic to the next crossing. That’s because it’s easier to build a road bridge at the next LX along (Redcar Lane), and one road bridge is normally enough to get rid of teo nearby road crossings. Even then, to do that, you‘d be looking at £50m+. Id also expect auite a fight with locals who would invariably want an underpass rather than a flyover (you certainly wouldnt want a flyover view out of your front windows), but due to the low lying ground an underpass may well have water table issues.
Would you not just stop up the crossing and send everybody round the bridge to a short way to the west, in combination with some widening and straightening works to associated road.
There'd be a half decent traffic modelling task for the highway impact on that, mind.
 

ainsworth74

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For that one, you‘d just put up a fence, plus a pedestrian / bike friendly footbridge, and send the traffic to the next crossing. That’s because it’s easier to build a road bridge at the next LX along (Redcar Lane), and one road bridge is normally enough to get rid of teo nearby road crossings. Even then, to do that, you‘d be looking at £50m+.
Oof £50m! My thought of "a couple of dozen million" was a considerable underestimate :lol:

So now to persuade HM Treasury that this a good use of taxpayer dosh...

Would you not just stop up the crossing and send everybody round the bridge to a short way to the west, in combination with some widening and straightening works to associated road.
There'd be a half decent traffic modelling task for the highway impact on that, mind.
Yeah that would be an option but it's quite a narrow and constrained road, particularly the junction to the north of the bridge. So you'd definitely want to do something with that road layout along with widening it. But if we're looking for an "economy" option that's probably the one. Expect that to be quite unpopular locally however I bet! @Darandio might have some thoughts on that?
 

Bald Rick

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Would you not just stop up the crossing and send everybody round the bridge to a short way to the west, in combination with some widening and straightening works to associated road.
There'd be a half decent traffic modelling task for the highway impact on that, mind.

I assume that the bridge to the west is the station footbridge? If so, then you would want a seperate footbridge for the public right of way.
 

bluenoxid

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It’s a political move. It will be interesting to see the outcomes.
 

Bald Rick

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I didn’t realise this was an official proposal (I missed that this was hived off from another thread).

I’d do the initial feasibility for £50k.

Theres about three realsiitic solutions, all of which have been discussed above!

(And building a bridge on line isn‘t one of them).
 
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