TFL 60+ and trainsplit/railforums ticketing site

[microrich]

I’ve recently been lucky enough to get my TFL 60+ Oyster card, and have been using the forums ticketing site which supports adding the 60+ Oyster in the advanced options. However, I’m running into some issues where I believe the site is not giving me the best/cheapest ticket options (or possibly I’m misunderstanding some of the rules?).

I am looking for a return from London Waterloo to Warminster this Saturday, using my Senior railcard/TFL 60+ combination. I am leaving on the 0850 train from Waterloo, but need flexibility on the return journey so I can return on any train (via Salisbury route) that evening. The options I get are as follows (I am selecting the Flexible tab since I don't want to be restricted by Advance tickets).

https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/results?FromStation=7055980&ToStation=7055050&Adults=1&OutboundDate=17/08/2024&OutboundTime=08:00&InboundDate=17/08/2024&InboundTime=18:00&Railcard=SRN&adv:tct=6&adv:mzc=6&searchBy=0&firstClass=false&flexible=true&selectionMethod=Grid

Looking at the flexible fares, it is offering me a £34.05 off-peak day return from Clapham Junction to Warminster (returning on the 18:46 from Warminster). Why does it not offer me the cheaper £33.35 off-peak day return from Surbiton (last station in Zone 6 covered by my 60+ Oyster), taking advantage of 14.3 of the NR conditions of travel which I believe does not require the train to stop at this station in these circumstances (https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=SUR&dest=WMN&rlc=SRN&rte=800&tkt=CDR).

Apart from being (slightly) more expensive, the additional problem is that the £34.05 fare being offered to me by the forums ticketing site appears to be unnecessarily restricting me to return on trains calling at Clapham Junction (which quite a few of them don't). For example, the cheaper £33.35 fare not offered by the website would presumably also be valid on the 18:11 return journey from Warminster, for which the forums website is giving the cheapest flexible fare of £47.50.

Any help in unravelling this would be appreciated. Specifically, am I correct in saying that getting an off-peak day return from Surbiton to Warminster is my best option?

 

[SickyNicky]

First, just to say that you are indeed fine to use a station that you don't stop at in conjunction with a season or rover ticket.

The system is really in place to sell boundary zone tickets, of which there aren't any to Warminster. When we designed it, we took the view that the vast majority of passengers wouldn't want the hassle of dealing with a split at a non-stop station - even if they understood that it was valid (which most wouldn't), they would likely still get problems with staff who don't. This becomes a particular problem when using travelcards on intercity TOCs which don't stop in the zones and have fairly zealous gateline staff.

So we went down the pragmatic route of offering obviously valid, frictionless tickets which might be a little more expensive, although in most cases, boundary zone tickets are the same price or cheaper, and these are specifically there for non-stop trains. This is one of the exceptions.

I would suggest that people who know their rights and are prepared to stand up for them buy the ticket they want directly.

 

[Somewhere]

If you're going for Imberbus, the queues at Warminster last year were massive. Consider going to Salisbury instead, and catch a number 2 bus to West Lavington. Zero queues there.

 

[microrich]

First, just to say that you are indeed fine to use a station that you don't stop at in conjunction with a season or rover ticket.

The system is really in place to sell boundary zone tickets, of which there aren't any to Warminster. When we designed it, we took the view that the vast majority of passengers wouldn't want the hassle of dealing with a split at a non-stop station - even if they understood that it was valid (which most wouldn't), they would likely still get problems with staff who don't. This becomes a particular problem when using travelcards on intercity TOCs which don't stop in the zones and have fairly zealous gateline staff.

So we went down the pragmatic route of offering obviously valid, frictionless tickets which might be a little more expensive, although in most cases, boundary zone tickets are the same price or cheaper, and these are specifically there for non-stop trains. This is one of the exceptions.

I would suggest that people who know their rights and are prepared to stand up for them buy the ticket they want directly.

Thanks for the reply and explaining so clearly how the algorithm on the trainsplit/forums ticketing site is working here. That certainly answers a lot of my questions. It is now clear why you have not offered the slightly cheaper split at Surbiton, even though it is a valid option. I'm one of those travellers who usually prefers to avoid any likely points of friction / hassle, and don't mind paying slightly more to do so. However, since I'm likely to be using similar splits a lot over the coming months, I'm intending on carrying with me a printout showing section 14.3 the NR Conditions of Travel, which I can show if anyone queries what I'm doing.

A few additional points/queries/suggestions which arise from this:

• I would gently suggest trainsplit need to tweak their algorithm so that the ticket offered for an itinerary with TFL 60+ Oyster option enabled is never more expensive than when it is not selected. With the example in my original posting (https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/re...lass=false&flexible=true&selectionMethod=Grid), with TFL 60+ Oyster not selected, selecting flexible 0850 outward and 1811 return gives a fare of £37.33. Then enabling TFL 60+ Oyster with otherwise identical parameters, the same itinerary gives a fare of £47.50. I would certainly be somewhat disgruntled if I found out after buying a ticket that I had overpaid by over £10 for enabling a concessionary pass which I would expect to reduce, not increase the fare!
• I'm wondering if the split at Clapham Junction that trainsplit is offering in the above search is actually valid. In the current Conditions of Travel Page 12, in the information note after section 14, it states: "If a combination of Tickets is ‘split’ at a station but that station Call is defined as for “pick-up only” in the National Rail Timetable and in journey planners, then the Ticket held to that station is not valid; likewise, if that station call is defined as for “set-down only” in the National Rail Timetable and in journey planners, then the Ticket held from that station is not valid." The timetable states that all direct trains to Salisbury and beyond are pick-up only at Clapham Junction.
• I think I've found a cheaper split at £32.20 (by trial and error) which appears to avoid all the above problems, valid on all trains via Salisbury (all trains seem to stop at Basingstoke), so gives complete flexibility:
  • Boundary Zone 6 to Basingstoke: Anytime Day Return: £14.05 (https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=QAJ&dest=BSK&rlc=SRN&rte=810&tkt=SDR)
  • Basingstoke to Warminster: Off-peak Day Return: £18.15 (https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=BSK&dest=WMN&rlc=SRN&rte=800&tkt=CDR)

By the way, as an ex software engineer myself, I have some appreciation of the complexity of what trainsplit is attempting to do. If any of you are reading (and it appears you are), keep up the good work! You've saved me quite a lot of money over the last couple of years.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm wondering if the split at Clapham Junction that trainsplit is offering in the above search is actually valid. In the current Conditions of Travel Page 12, in the information note after section 14, it states: "If a combination of Tickets is ‘split’ at a station but that station Call is defined as for “pick-up only” in the National Rail Timetable and in journey planners, then the Ticket held to that station is not valid; likewise, if that station call is defined as for “set-down only” in the National Rail Timetable and in journey planners, then the Ticket held from that station is not valid." The timetable states that all direct trains to Salisbury and beyond are pick-up only at Clapham Junction.

My understanding is that it is fine to join a pick up only train or leave a set down only train, but not join a set down only train or leave a pick up only train.

 

[microrich]

If you're going for Imberbus, the queues at Warminster last year were massive. Consider going to Salisbury instead, and catch a number 2 bus to West Lavington. Zero queues there.

Yes, I am indeed going to Imberbus. Thanks for the tip - just don't tell everyone!

My understanding is that it is fine to join a pick up only train or leave a set down only train, but not join a set down only train or leave a pick up only train.

That would be my understanding also.

However, the issue here is that I am essentially being offered a split ticket (splitting at Clapham Junction) where the outward journey is pick-up only at Clapham Junction. My interpretation of the rule stated in the Conditions of Travel, "If a combination of Tickets is ‘split’ at a station but that station Call is defined as for “pick-up only” in the National Rail Timetable and in journey planners, then the Ticket held to that station is not valid" is that therefore my ticket from Waterloo to Clapham Junction is not valid. In this case, my ticket from Waterloo to Clapham Junction is a TFL 60+ Oyster, perhaps that makes it OK, but I'm not sure the fact it's a concessionary area based pass trumps this rule. It's certainly not very clear to me, hence me querying it.

 

[MikeWh]

In this case, my ticket from Waterloo to Clapham Junction is a TFL 60+ Oyster, perhaps that makes it OK, but I'm not sure the fact it's a concessionary area based pass trumps this rule. It's certainly not very clear to me, hence me querying it.

I get you now. The 60+ Oyster is essentially an off-peak zones 1-6 travelcard with various additions. It is therefore valid with a ticket to take you out of the zones. The important point is that you have a combination of tickets which covers the whole journey. I do agree that a single/return ticket from Waterloo to Clapham Junction wouldn't necessarily be valid, but the 60+ Oyster is a season ticket so the rules are different.

 

[Somewhere]

Yes, I am indeed going to Imberbus. Thanks for the tip - just don't tell everyone!

2 - Salisbury to Devizes

Timetable for 2 - Salisbury to Devizes

www.salisburyreds.co.uk