Thames Road Crossings and charges discussion

[DynamicSpirit]

Moderator note - split from:

Is the 9bn Lower Thames Road crossing approval bad news for rail?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crewy5472gxo bad bad day for the railway. This is going to make driving between Essex and Kent more attractI’ve and undermine train travel between the two counties. If anything this should either be a new heavy rail line. Or a light railway. And combined...

www.railforums.co.uk

A good case study is the congestion charge in London, traffic levels have exceeded the pre charge levels, however without the charge congestion would have been higher rather than the same level. In addition, whilst there was a fair amount of complaining, because of the good public transport a lot people were able to change their habits.

Are you referring to traffic levels across all of London, or traffic levels within the small area that the congestion charge applies to? (The latter is the relevant measure of how successful the charge is).

In any case, I'd expect the impact of the charge to be limited because it's been very badly designed: The fixed rate per vehicle per day gives a strong disincentive for someone to take their car on a one-off 10 minute journey into the charging zone, but virtually no disincentive at all to Uber drivers and the like to spend the entire day driving within the congestion zone, since the daily charge will be amortized over so many journeys. Unfortunately the latter group is likely to be the one the contributes the most traffic.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Are you referring to traffic levels across all of London, or traffic levels within the small area that the congestion charge applies to? (The latter is the relevant measure of how successful the charge is).

In any case, I'd expect the impact of the charge to be limited because it's been very badly designed: The fixed rate per vehicle per day gives a strong disincentive for someone to take their car on a one-off 10 minute journey into the charging zone, but virtually no disincentive at all to Uber drivers and the like to spend the entire day driving within the congestion zone, since the daily charge will be amortized over so many journeys. Unfortunately the latter group is likely to be the one the contributes the most traffic.

I got talking to someone who has a small delivery fleet. It seems they keep certain vehicles out by driving those already paying the congestion (ULEZ maybe also) out to a relevant boundary place swap loads and back in again. I pondered if this might be more efficient. He said they are spending a little more on fuel but its a lot on effort. Needs fine tuning but he felt they were driving more to and from the boundary. He said a competitor just does not go into central London - seems they had more older vans. The conversation was a bit skewed as we were drifting around my very vague idea to get an eBike for entering the forbidden zone !. Turns out packages could be to heavy/big.

So it would be sensible if the congeston charge was mileage based. Perhaps lots of small zones ?.
All this is well away from the Lower Thames Crossing though.
Does lead me to the question - will the LTC free up capacity on the Dartford Crossing for vehicles avoiding the London congestion charge and ULEZ - especially now that the other East of London Thames crossings at Blackwall and Silvertown now have a toll. I suspect the Rotherhithe will be next to charge.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

So it would be sensible if the congeston charge was mileage based. Perhaps lots of small zones ?.

Yes that would be more sensible. I assume the reason it isn't being done (aside from the politics) is the greater difficulty of monitoring mileage in the zone, compared with monitoring which vehicles cross the zone boundary.

All this is well away from the Lower Thames Crossing though.
Does lead me to the question - will the LTC free up capacity on the Dartford Crossing for vehicles avoiding the London congestion charge and ULEZ - especially now that the other East of London Thames crossings at Blackwall and Silvertown now have a toll. I suspect the Rotherhithe will be next to charge.

Any driver in the vicinity of central London who wants the cross the Thames while avoiding the congestion zone can just use Vauxhall Bridge and then go via Hyde Park Corner and Park Lane. No need to go out as far as Dartford (or even as far as Silvertown)

Also, the Dartford crossing is tolled, as the LTC will be. Vauxhall Bridge (and the Rotherhithe tunnel) aren't.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Yes that would be more sensible. I assume the reason it isn't being done (aside from the politics) is the greater difficulty of monitoring mileage in the zone, compared with monitoring which vehicles cross the zone boundary.



Any driver in the vicinity of central London who wants the cross the Thames while avoiding the congestion zone can just use Vauxhall Bridge and then go via Hyde Park Corner and Park Lane. No need to go out as far as Dartford (or even as far as Silvertown)

Also, the Dartford crossing is tolled, as the LTC will be. Vauxhall Bridge (and the Rotherhithe tunnel) aren't.

I cannot see the Rotherhithe tunnel escaping a toll charge much longer as it is going to get buried by users avoiding the charges on Silvertown and Blackwall. Less likely Vauxhall Bridge but it would not surprise me if a toll did appear on upper Thames crossings near central London especially as there are a few bridges that need replacing.

For me from Croydon it would be Vauxhall Bridge or the Dartford crossing depending on how far North of central London I am going. I will no longer be using the Blackwall Tunnel and A102(M) to M11 or North London.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I cannot see the Rotherhithe tunnel escaping a toll charge much longer as it is going to get buried by users avoiding the charges on Silvertown and Blackwall. Less likely Vauxhall Bridge but it would not surprise me if a toll did appear on upper Thames crossings near central London especially as there are a few bridges that need replacing.

For me from Croydon it would be Vauxhall Bridge or the Dartford crossing depending on how far North of central London I am going. I will no longer be using the Blackwall Tunnel and A102(M) to M11 or North London.

Kinda agree on the Rotherhithe tunnel. That's a bit of an inconsistency that could cause additional congestion in that area. Note that that Tower Bridge is also not tolled and appears to be outside the congestion zone. And Tower Bridge is already extremely congested - to the point that something arguably needs to be done. There are also inconsistencies in the times that could lead to peculiarities in traffic flows at different times: The tolls on Blackwall and Silvertown run to 10pm every day, whereas the congestion zone charge has much more restricted hours, especially at weekends. Maybe it would be better for the charges/tolls to apply 24 hours?

If the charges push you to use the Dartford Crossing then from one point of view they are to some extent correctly doing their job: Getting traffic out of London. Without wanting to wish you any inconvenience, a car going round the M25 is probably causing less harm to fewer people than a car driving into central London or towards North Greenwich.

 

[stuu]

I cannot see the Rotherhithe tunnel escaping a toll charge much longer as it is going to get buried by users avoiding the charges on Silvertown and Blackwall. Less likely Vauxhall Bridge but it would not surprise me if a toll did appear on upper Thames crossings near central London especially as there are a few bridges that need replacing.

For me from Croydon it would be Vauxhall Bridge or the Dartford crossing depending on how far North of central London I am going. I will no longer be using the Blackwall Tunnel and A102(M) to M11 or North London.

That seems an odd choice, you would rather drive out of your way to save £1.50? You will be costing yourself money once you have done at most 10 extra miles, ignoring the cost of time

 

[Peter Sarf]

Kinda agree on the Rotherhithe tunnel. That's a bit of an inconsistency that could cause additional congestion in that area. Note that that Tower Bridge is also not tolled and appears to be outside the congestion zone. And Tower Bridge is already extremely congested - to the point that something arguably needs to be done. There are also inconsistencies in the times that could lead to peculiarities in traffic flows at different times: The tolls on Blackwall and Silvertown run to 10pm every day, whereas the congestion zone charge has much more restricted hours, especially at weekends. Maybe it would be better for the charges/tolls to apply 24 hours?

If the charges push you to use the Dartford Crossing then from one point of view they are to some extent correctly doing their job: Getting traffic out of London. Without wanting to wish you any inconvenience, a car going round the M25 is probably causing less harm to fewer people than a car driving into central London or towards North Greenwich.

Actually that makes me fear that putting a toll on the Blackwall Tunnel might make the new Silvertown tunnel (also with a toll on it) pointless. How many locally will head for Tower bridge or Rotherhithe tunnel while they are free ?.

Common sense says tolls will push people onto cheaper routes and then tolls will be put on the alternative routes as well.

For me the Lower Thames Crossing will make the Dartford crossing bearable.

It is funny to think that where I grew up (Strood) the Lower Thames Crossing would be a godsend. All routes North off the M25 as far anti clockwise as the M40 would be that bit easier. Even the M4 might be easier having to not pass Heathrow on the M25 !.

That seems an odd choice, you would rather drive out of your way to save £1.50? You will be costing yourself money once you have done at most 10 extra miles, ignoring the cost of time

It depends how far I am going round the M25. Anything up the M11 as in what I would have done via the Blackwall tunnel. If I was heading towards the M6 then more likely to risk via Heathrow.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Actually that makes me fear that putting a toll on the Blackwall Tunnel might make the new Silvertown tunnel (also with a toll on it) pointless. How many locally will head for Tower bridge or Rotherhithe tunnel while they are free ?

I think it's more that, not putting a toll on the Blackwall Tunnel would have made the Silvertown Tunnel almost pointless: The two tunnels are so close together that it would be very little trouble to swap between one and the other if that meant avoiding a toll. On the other hand Rotherhithe is a lot further West. Particularly if you are coming up from the A2, which a lot (most?) of traffic will be doing, diverting to the Rotherhithe Tunnel will take you some way out of your way, probably getting caught in traffic jams through Greenwich and again through Surrey Quays en route. You'd have to be very determined to avoid tolls to risk that, though doubtless some will.

On the other hand, if your destination to the South is somewhere between the tunnels, then you are more likely to choose Blackwall because of the tolls. But honestly, I'd expect that people avoiding the congestion charge is a far greater traffic driver to the Rotherhithe tunnel than people avoiding the Blackwall/Silvertown tolls.

btw remember there is also still the Woolwich ferry which is still free, although very slow and usually involves a lot of queuing.

 

[AlastairFraser]

btw remember there is also still the Woolwich ferry which is still free, although very slow and usually involves a lot of queuing.

Exactly, there's still a free option for people if they need it.

 

[CyrusWuff]

One thing to be aware of regarding the Rotherhithe Tunnel is that height, width and weight restrictions apply, with PCNs issued for non-compliance.

Specifically: 2m height restriction and 2m width restriction for all vehicles, and a 2 tonne Gross Vehicle Weight (aka Maximum Authorised Mass) limit of 2 tonnes for Goods Vehicles (which can include Camper Vans, Motorhomes and car-derived vans if they're registered in the wrong class.)

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think it's more that, not putting a toll on the Blackwall Tunnel would have made the Silvertown Tunnel almost pointless: The two tunnels are so close together that it would be very little trouble to swap between one and the other if that meant avoiding a toll. On the other hand Rotherhithe is a lot further West. Particularly if you are coming up from the A2, which a lot (most?) of traffic will be doing, diverting to the Rotherhithe Tunnel will take you some way out of your way, probably getting caught in traffic jams through Greenwich and again through Surrey Quays en route. You'd have to be very determined to avoid tolls to risk that, though doubtless some will.

On the other hand, if your destination to the South is somewhere between the tunnels, then you are more likely to choose Blackwall because of the tolls. But honestly, I'd expect that people avoiding the congestion charge is a far greater traffic driver to the Rotherhithe tunnel than people avoiding the Blackwall/Silvertown tolls.

btw remember there is also still the Woolwich ferry which is still free, although very slow and usually involves a lot of queuing.

Ah yes the Woolwich ferry. Tried on a few occasions to use it just out of curiosity - failed. One time we gave up after more then fifteen minutes back in the 1990s as the queue was not moving and no sign of movement on the water !. I think everyone I know is fed up of me wanting to try it when its not a massive detour.

Yes the Silvertown tunnel would never have been built if the Blackwall tunnels were to continue toll free.

I suppose one reason I won't use them is I have not set up an account for things like tolls. I would use it so little that I cannot be bothered. For instance my Dartford Crossing account was closed due to lack of use which is annoying, I opened a new account and had to apply for the money back from my old account. Would be easier to stick masking tape over my number plates !. If I still lived in Strood then I would use the Dartford crossing a lot more of course.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Ah yes the Woolwich ferry. Tried on a few occasions to use it just out of curiosity - failed. One time we gave up after more then fifteen minutes back in the 1990s as the queue was not moving and no sign of movement on the water !. I think everyone I know is fed up of me wanting to try it when its not a massive detour.

The main issue with the Woolwich Ferry now is that they replaced the three 1960s ferries with two modern ones, and the magnetic docking system is overly complicated.

The combination of those two things means that there's only a one boat service a lot of the time, and docking can take almost as long as the crossing as the tolerances are a lot tighter.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Ah yes

The main issue with the Woolwich Ferry now is that they replaced the three 1960s ferries with two modern ones, and the magnetic docking system is overly complicated.

The combination of those two things means that there's only a one boat service a lot of the time, and docking can take almost as long as the crossing as the tolerances are a lot tighter.

Ah yes, I have heard the travel news saying "only one ferry today".
For all the faff and effort a bridge or tunnel seems so much easier. There was always talk of a new crossing at Thamesmead iirc - I wonder what happened to that ?.

 

[Joe Paxton]

[...]
In any case, I'd expect the impact of the charge to be limited because it's been very badly designed: The fixed rate per vehicle per day gives a strong disincentive for someone to take their car on a one-off 10 minute journey into the charging zone, but virtually no disincentive at all to Uber drivers and the like to spend the entire day driving within the congestion zone, since the daily charge will be amortized over so many journeys. Unfortunately the latter group is likely to be the one the contributes the most traffic.

The Congestion Charge is a fairly blunt tool but it's widely acknowledged to have an impact - TfL did plenty of work on this in the early years of the scheme, more recently the relevant data is a bit more spread around different reports. And £15 is no small disincentive. In a hypothetical future if the CC was ditched, the situation wouldn't be pretty!

I suppose one reason I won't use them is I have not set up an account for things like tolls. I would use it so little that I cannot be bothered. For instance my Dartford Crossing account was closed due to lack of use which is annoying, I opened a new account and had to apply for the money back from my old account. Would be easier to stick masking tape over my number plates !. If I still lived in Strood then I would use the Dartford crossing a lot more of course.

It's pretty easy to set up a TfL Auto Pay account - I'd recommend it to anyone who might use the Blackwall & Silvertown tunnels, not least because it's the only way to pay the reduced £1.50 'off peak' charge (rather than £4 without an account). I don't think there's any 'lack of use' account expiry rules with a TfL Auto Pay account - furthermore you have a choice of setting up a Direct Debit or saving a payment card.

I'm a little surprised your Dart Charge account for the Dartford Crossing was closed. From what you say it was a 'Pre pay' account where you top it up with credit, in return for a discount of up to 20% in the crossing charge (so £2 for cars rather than £2.50) - for infrequent users it's probably better to just have a 'Pay as you go' account which charges the undiscounted charge to your saved payment card.
(I think there has been a recent change to some of the terminology used by Dart Charge, as previously the different types of accounts wasn't made very clear.)

With Dart Charge, there was a back-office change of payment provider in the summer of 2023 which was somewhat less than smooth - I wonder if your dormant account closure concided with that?

Ah yes, I have heard the travel news saying "only one ferry today".
For all the faff and effort a bridge or tunnel seems so much easier. There was always talk of a new crossing at Thamesmead iirc - I wonder what happened to that ?.

The most recent iteration of such a scheme was called the "Thames Gateway Bridge" - proposed in the early noughties by TfL under Mayor Livingstone, it attracted quite a lot of concern and protest particularly from south of the river and was canned by Mayor Johnson not long he was elected in 2008.


Re the Silvertown Tunnel and the related issue of charges for both the new Silvertown and the existing Blackwall tunnels - I'm cautiously optimistic that this is going to be a decent improvement on the situation. True, the £4 peak time charge (applies northbound 6am-10am and southbound 4pm-7pm) is a steep uplift from 'free' and I can understand regular users finding that a bit of a shock, but if the traffic ends up flowing somewhat better than it did then perhaps that's all for the good.

 

[John Webb]

I do wonder if TfL would like to charge for all river crossings in their area? They cannot, of course, because Tower Bridge, London Bridge and others are maintained by the City of London's Bridge Fund and therefore not under TfL's control.
Having grown up near the Woolwich Free Ferry (and can remember the previous four steam paddle boats from before the 1960s boats were brought in) I am sorry to hear of the problems they currently are having. This ferry was also built under it's own Act of Parliament and would need another to change it to allow charging, I understand.
Out of curiosity, are there many cities that charge for crossing from one half to the other over or under a river? Merseyside? Newcastle-upon-Tyne?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Ah yes the Woolwich ferry. Tried on a few occasions to use it just out of curiosity - failed. One time we gave up after more then fifteen minutes back in the 1990s as the queue was not moving and no sign of movement on the water !. I think everyone I know is fed up of me wanting to try it when its not a massive detour.

If you're willing to do without the car, the Woolwich ferry is well worth a trip on by foot or as a cyclist (which means no queuing, although you do have to wait for the next ferry). The views from it are spectacular - and you have a better vantage point than if you're a driver and want/need to stay near your vehicle. The only snag is once you reach the North bank, there's very little of interest nearby to see or do - other possibly than walk to the Bascule Bridge or the Sir Steve Redgrave Bridge, which are near the end of the London City Airport runway so give you close-up views of aircraft coming in to land. The South bank by contrast has long and nice riverside walks plus cafes and the nearby Woolwich shopping centre.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If you're willing to do without the car, the Woolwich ferry is well worth a trip on by foot or as a cyclist (which means no queuing, although you do have to wait for the next ferry). The views from it are spectacular - and you have a better vantage point than if you're a driver and want/need to stay near your vehicle. The only snag is once you reach the North bank, there's very little of interest nearby to see or do - other possibly than walk to the Bascule Bridge or the Sir Steve Redgrave Bridge, which are near the end of the London City Airport runway so give you close-up views of aircraft coming in to land. The South bank by contrast has long and nice riverside walks plus cafes and the nearby Woolwich shopping centre.

Thanks. Myself and my over 60s Oyster card will have to explore that opportunity. And those places of interest.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I do wonder if TfL would like to charge for all river crossings in their area? They cannot, of course, because Tower Bridge, London Bridge and others are maintained by the City of London's Bridge Fund and therefore not under TfL's control.

I assume you mean the City Bridge Foundation. They maintain the 4 road bridges between Tower Bridge and Southwark Bridge plus the Millennium Bridge. But since Tower Bridge is the only one of those not in the congestion zone, it seems unlikely that TfL couldn't include if they wanted to.

 

[Vexed]

Out of curiosity, are there many cities that charge for crossing from one half to the other over or under a river? Merseyside? Newcastle-upon-Tyne?

Itchen Toll Bridge in Southampton, at a rather small 40p to cross for residents, £1.20 otherwise.