Thameslink Ashford to Cambridge

[class717]

Hi all

Has the 24tph Thameslink dream been given the boot?

I am aware there is a large backlog of training for drivers to be using ATO, which I understand is a prerequisite for 24 tph (reliably anyway)

Right now TL still runs the 2 tph Cambridge to Kings Cross which I had always assumed was the service that would be linked up to Ashford

The carriage maps still say services are being planned…

 

[jnjkerbin]

It's not been officially pronounced dead, but is as good as. From December, Southeastern start running an hourly Maidstone East to Charing Cross service which takes what would be that train's path up the South Eastern Main Line.

 

[dk1]

I don’t think they’ll bother with that now.

 

[class717]

Maybe that’s why there’s no rush in getting drivers trained on ATO when the current timetable can be maintained without either ETCS Manual or ATO, it does seem weird as there were a few TL services from Ashford pre 2014, another service that is Now worse than it was before (Sevenoaks to Welwyn being another example, as off peak those services used to go to Kentish Town whereas they only run to Blackfriars now)

I wonder how long it will be before it is officially cancelled

 

[43074]

Maidstone to Cambridge is dead, the East Coast recast timetable flipped the departure from Kings Cross by about 15 minutes so the paths through the core would no longer line up anyway, and the fast Maidstone East trains will be run by Southeastern to Charing Cross.

From next May the Cambridge stopping services from Kings Cross are rebranded as Great Northern so that's a pretty good indication (among other things) there is no intention of running them from south of the river.

 

[dk1]

From next May the Cambridge stopping services from Kings Cross are rebranded as Great Northern so that's a pretty good indication (among other things) there is no intention of running them from south of the river.

Probably for the best. Nice to have through services to the Thameslink core, East Croydon, Gatwick & the South Coast but I see no real need for the Maidstone. It seemed to be overlooking the most important flow for reliability importance from North on the river which is Kings Cross & it’s onward connections.

 

[PGAT]

Yeah a core connection isn't too necessary, when you can get off Plat3 at Blackfriars and walk to the other side of the island platform.

 

[class717]

Does this mean it’ll be a 387 instead of a 700?

Maidstone to Cambridge is dead, the East Coast recast timetable flipped the departure from Kings Cross by about 15 minutes so the paths through the core would no longer line up anyway, and the fast Maidstone East trains will be run by Southeastern to Charing Cross.

From next May the Cambridge stopping services from Kings Cross are rebranded as Great Northern so that's a pretty good indication (among other things) there is no intention of running them from south of the river

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Cambridge to Maidstone East/Ashford service is completely dead. Never going to happen.

 

[bramling]

Does this mean it’ll be a 387 instead of a 700?

Can’t really see it, as it’d be necessary to find at least 16 387s. Likewise what would the displaced 700s be used on?

Now had the 365s still been around it might have been possible to produce some beneficial reshuffle.

 

[Failed Unit]

Can’t really see it, as it’d be necessary to find at least 16 387s. Likewise what would the displaced 700s be used on?

Now had the 365s still been around it might have been possible to produce some beneficial reshuffle.

We have had some 387s doing the Cambridge - London service this week and the 0657 Cambridge to London on example. I have seen "class 387" on the departure boards at WGC a few times this week. If this is planned or not I am not sure.

However the Sevenoaks - Welwyn Garden City service shows the demand is there, but having a reliable service in disruption is also desirable.

To me I am not sure which I would prefer (ignoring the ultimate destination as realistically to is Cambridge - Core the reason this train ever was planned) - It is nice having a direct train to Blackfriars but the change isn't a killer. Single connection at Farringdon is nice for crossrail (But Moorgate ticks that box as well). Having a train in Kings Cross is much nice then hanging around the platform at St Pancras.

 

[Magdalia]

From next May the Cambridge stopping services from Kings Cross are rebranded as Great Northern so that's a pretty good indication (among other things) there is no intention of running them from south of the river.

This is good news if it means that Cambridge-Maidstone isn't going to happen.

Does this mean it’ll be a 387 instead of a 700?

During the pandemic lockdowns GN sometimes interworked the Cambridge stoppers with the fast Kings Lynn/Ely services, with a mix of class 387 and 700. This resulted in some class 700 workings to Ely and at least one a day to Kings Lynn. The key constraint is platform utilisation at Kings Cross.

However the Sevenoaks - Welwyn Garden City service shows the demand is there, but having a reliable service in disruption is also desirable.

In my view Sevenoaks-Welwyn Garden City is a much better idea for all day running than Cambridge-Maidstone.

 

[Need2]

If it is ‘officially dead’, what will become if the TL Ashford depot?

 

[Watershed]

If it is ‘officially dead’, what will become if the TL Ashford depot?

It will continue to be an inefficient relic of abandoned plans in all likelihood!

 

[43074]

Can’t really see it, as it’d be necessary to find at least 16 387s. Likewise what would the displaced 700s be used on?

Are you sure it's that many?

 

[Need2]

If it is officially dead, has any announcement ever been made?

 

[bramling]

Are you sure it's that many?

To run the service as-is, it would be. Of course, the number of diagrams could be reduced if some services went down to 4 cars, and/or if there was interworking with the 1Txx services.

 

[class717]

This is good news if it means that Cambridge-Maidstone isn't going to happen.


During the pandemic lockdowns GN sometimes interworked the Cambridge stoppers with the fast Kings Lynn/Ely services, with a mix of class 387 and 700. This resulted in some class 700 workings to Ely and at least one a day to Kings Lynn. The key constraint is platform utilisation at Kings Cross.


In my view Sevenoaks-Welwyn Garden City is a much better idea for all day running than Cambridge-Maidstone.

I hope the Welwyn to Sevenoaks eventually goes all day, bringing the Finsbury Park to core total to 6 an hour would be nice and improve connections from the Hertford Loop

If it is officially dead, has any announcement ever been made?

Last news article I could find was from 2020

 

[bramling]

I hope the Welwyn to Sevenoaks eventually goes all day, bringing the Finsbury Park to core total to 6 an hour would be nice and improve connections from the Hertford Loop

Pre-Covid, I couldn’t really see this happening, as 8tph to Welwyn Garden City would be well and truly excessive.

Now the Moorgate service is down to 2tph off-peak there’s perhaps more of a case, albeit there would be an issue that the 717 fleet would be massively under-utilised and the 700/0 fleet over-utilised. There would likely have to be some degree of re-think of the whole wider GN/TL service provision to make it stack up.

 

[Royston Vasey]

From next May the Cambridge stopping services from Kings Cross are rebranded as Great Northern so that's a pretty good indication (among other things) there is no intention of running them from south of the ririver.

I fear that may be the end of declassified rear First Class assuming the service keeps 700s. Which would be an even greater waste of space on the Kings Cross stoppers than it is on Thameslink Fasts, since almost nobody travels in First Class on the locals.

 

[bramling]

I fear that may be the end of declassified rear First Class assuming the service keeps 700s. Which would be an even greater waste of space on the Kings Cross stoppers than it is on Thameslink Fasts, since almost nobody travels in First Class on the locals.

Don’t really see why this should happen, it would make things too complex, as most users won’t appreciate the difference between a GN or TL service.

It’s never quite been clear what the score is when 387s appear on these services. Based on what GTR say on Twitter, really the rear first should be declassified here as well. I don’t think it’s ever been clarified.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Don’t really see why this should happen, it would make things too complex, as most users won’t appreciate the difference between a GN or TL service.

It’s never quite been clear what the score is when 387s appear on these services. Based on what GTR say on Twitter, really the rear first should be declassified here as well. I don’t think it’s ever been clarified.

The stipulation is "on Thameslink branded services" currently though isn't it? A reaction to the specified overprovision specifically on the 700s. 387s all branded GN so it's a clean rule.

I guess it could be amended to "on all Class 700 operated services" and things carry on as-is.

most users won’t appreciate the difference between a GN or TL service.

Most users don't know they can use the rear compartment, so it's already a bit of an in-the-know crowd who it affects anyway

 

[bramling]

The stipulation is "on Thameslink branded services" currently though isn't it? A reaction to the specified overprovision specifically on the 700s. 387s all branded GN so it's a clean rule.

Branded trains maybe, but my interpretation of “branded service” is what appear in the timetable, and that as things stand is Thameslink.

We all know they mean 700s, but this isn’t quite what they actually communicate.

I guess it could be amended to "on all Class 700 operated services" and things carry on as-is.

It is interesting that 387 services on the GN side have for some time had a “Class 387” note added on the station CIS. I’ve always found this rather quaint, as it’s generally pretty unusual for the class of rolling stock to appear on public-facing systems. Good of them to give information which is useful to “in the know” users.

Most users don't know they can use the rear compartment, so it's already a bit of an in-the-know crowd who it affects anyway

Ssshhhhh!

 

[adamedwards]

I do hope at some point the 387 trains will get a bicycle space. A right pain waiting at the correct point for a class 700 and then discovering its a 387 and the only space is really for wheelchairs. Ideally the 387s should have a cycle space in the same location as the 8 car, 700s or at least something with a very visible marker on the outside of the train. I hate running up platforms trying to get to the right place for my bike.

 

[JonathanH]

Ideally the 387s should have a cycle space in the same location as the 8 car, 700s or at least something with a very visible marker on the outside of the train.

That is nigh on impossible. It would require a bicycle space in behind one of the driving cabs instead of seats. As it is, the bicycle space should only be one carriage different in a 8-387 formation to a 8-700 one.

The area opposite the universal toilet in a 387 is bikes isn't it, with a wheelchair space in front of the universal toilet and other across the vestibule. There is a practical limit to which bikes can be conveyed on trains in any case unless there is advocacy for more seats to be taken out.

 

[adamedwards]

Unless i am mistaken, there is no official bike space in a 387. There just happens to be room if no wheelchairs are on board. Does anyone have a diagram of the units which shows otherwise?
Fact therefore is if I'm not seeing any signs they aren't very clear, unlike the class 700s which are.

 

[Polar]

Its definitely not gona happen, although cambridge depot was split into 2 links in order to facilitate it, the maidstone link has now become the fenland link and there is talk about the depot becoming one link again or a smaller gn link vs larger Brighton one.