Thameslink: final state?

[Backroom_boy]

Is the current Thameslink service in its final state?

Are there tweaks to timetabling/diagrams/rosters that are planned or are needed?

Is ATO in the central section 100% operational on all services?

I'm a regular passenger through the Central core and subjectively it feels the service is stuck at 'mostly good/once a fortnight bad' which is probably as good as any line these days.

 

[LBMPSB]

ATO in the core section is operational, but not at 100%. Kent County Council keep asking about the planned Maidstone to Cambridge service that has yet to materialise.

The service wouldn't be so bad if the Controllers all did the same thing when there were problems. It feels so haphazard when things start going wrong. There appears to be no set plan as to what to do with services. Sometimes a late runner will be spun around short of its destination, anoher time it will run fast avoiding stopping at intermediate stations. All I know is as so as my GTR THameslink is runnign late, I get my things together and prepare to be dumped off at some station to wait for another following train, which is equally late. Three Bridges to Hitchin has a WTT average of 1 hour 24 mins. My average is 2 hours 10 mins every month! I have had a journey whereby I have gotten to St Pancras for the train to run fast to Cambridge, so had to detrain, got on the next train for it to terminte at Finsbury Park with no ongoing driver. Caught the next one to get thrown out at Steveange for that train to run fast to Peterborough, wait of 45 mins for a let runner to finally get me home. GTR need to get some reliability in to their service that its customers can know will get them home.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

ATO in the core section is operational, but not at 100%. Kent County Council keep asking about the planned Maidstone to Cambridge service that has yet to materialise.

The service wouldn't be so bad if the Controllers all did the same thing when there were problems. It feels so haphazard when things start going wrong. There appears to be no set plan as to what to do with services. Sometimes a late runner will be spun around short of its destination, anoher time it will run fast avoiding stopping at intermediate stations. All I know is as so as my GTR THameslink is runnign late, I get my things together and prepare to be dumped off at some station to wait for another following train, which is equally late. Three Bridges to Hitchin has a WTT average of 1 hour 24 mins. My average is 2 hours 10 mins every month! I have had a journey whereby I have gotten to St Pancras for the train to run fast to Cambridge, so had to detrain, got on the next train for it to terminte at Finsbury Park with no ongoing driver. Caught the next one to get thrown out at Steveange for that train to run fast to Peterborough, wait of 45 mins for a let runner to finally get me home. GTR need to get some reliability in to their service that its customers can know will get them home.

Maidstone East service is dead.

 

[43066]

Maidstone East service is dead.

Is that official?

Also, what has become of the GTR depot at Ashford?

 

[Verulamius]

If Maidstone is dead and Littlehampton now run by Southern that would suggest that there is surplus rolling stock.

My understanding was that the rolling stock contract was for a fixed number of trains to be provided in service.

If fewer trains need to be in service has the rolling stock contract been renegotiated or is the rolling stock company quids in?

 

[43066]

If Maidstone is dead and Littlehampton now run by Southern that would suggest that there is surplus rolling stock.

My understanding was that the rolling stock contract was for a fixed number of trains to be provided in service.

If fewer trains need to be in service has the rolling stock contract been renegotiated or is the rolling stock company quids in?

I don’t think so, because the service to Rainham wasn’t originally planned for when the 700s were ordered, AIUI. The original plan was more services into Surrey/Sussex, but those were shelved when the Windmill Bridge junction rebuild was canned.

 

[Tunnel Bore]

ATO in the core section is operational, but not at 100%. Kent County Council keep asking about the planned Maidstone to Cambridge service that has yet to materialise.

The service wouldn't be so bad if the Controllers all did the same thing when there were problems. It feels so haphazard when things start going wrong. There appears to be no set plan as to what to do with services. Sometimes a late runner will be spun around short of its destination, anoher time it will run fast avoiding stopping at intermediate stations. All I know is as so as my GTR THameslink is runnign late, I get my things together and prepare to be dumped off at some station to wait for another following train, which is equally late. Three Bridges to Hitchin has a WTT average of 1 hour 24 mins. My average is 2 hours 10 mins every month! I have had a journey whereby I have gotten to St Pancras for the train to run fast to Cambridge, so had to detrain, got on the next train for it to terminte at Finsbury Park with no ongoing driver. Caught the next one to get thrown out at Steveange for that train to run fast to Peterborough, wait of 45 mins for a let runner to finally get me home. GTR need to get some reliability in to their service that its customers can know will get them home.

I agree strongly that the service recovery plans are poor, even counterproductive. Making trains skip stops in the peak flow direction so that they are on time for a lightly load counter flow return is senseless. Tipping people out when terminating short causes further delay and bags of frustration.

There is also an issue with last minute platform changes at Gatwick. This evening a service flipped from P7 to P6 at short notice while P7 was free anyway. Lots of people, many with luggage, up and down escalators to catch the train. All try to board the trains doors at foot of escalator. Dispatchers have to wait many minutes for the chaos to subside so that train is delayed, the one behind it is delayed and the northbound service on P5 also delayed because the dispatchers are too busy to get it away. Really can’t see why someone through that was a useful idea.

It doesn’t look like anyone is in a rush to reinstate the Littlehampton service either. I’m pleased fro selfish reason. They were going to takeover the Balcombe stops in the up peak but then not stop at Three Bridges or Gatwick so not provide good options for charging for Victoria.

 

[bramling]

ATO in the core section is operational, but not at 100%. Kent County Council keep asking about the planned Maidstone to Cambridge service that has yet to materialise.

Can’t see how it can now, as there aren’t really enough 700/0s without removing them from something else. In essence Kent’s share of 700/0s has gone towards serving Rainham, whether that’s a good thing or not I will leave as a matter for conjecture. The fact that the Cambridge services are now inter-worked with the Kings Lynn route, are in most cases now 387s, and are branded GN, I think gives us some idea of where the future seems to be. Just a pity we couldn’t have kept the 365s…

The service wouldn't be so bad if the Controllers all did the same thing when there were problems. It feels so haphazard when things start going wrong. There appears to be no set plan as to what to do with services. Sometimes a late runner will be spun around short of its destination, anoher time it will run fast avoiding stopping at intermediate stations.

In the latter case, this isn’t really something that control have options over. The decision will be informed by what the driver’s duty does. So if the driver is due for relief at the destination then it will be a case of missing stops, or if the driver is due to stay with the train for its next trip then turning short will be the choice. If one is really lucky then it may be possible to step up trains at the destination in which case there will be less impact on the passenger but probably with a complete round trip having to be missed somewhere.

All I know is as so as my GTR THameslink is runnign late, I get my things together and prepare to be dumped off at some station to wait for another following train, which is equally late. Three Bridges to Hitchin has a WTT average of 1 hour 24 mins. My average is 2 hours 10 mins every month! I have had a journey whereby I have gotten to St Pancras for the train to run fast to Cambridge, so had to detrain, got on the next train for it to terminte at Finsbury Park with no ongoing driver. Caught the next one to get thrown out at Steveange for that train to run fast to Peterborough, wait of 45 mins for a let runner to finally get me home. GTR need to get some reliability in to their service that its customers can know will get them home.

Yes it certainly hasn’t got much better 5+ years down the line. One still can’t depend on the service, and it doesn’t help that Covid has caused us to lose some of the alternatives, like the Baldock services and most of the fast Peterborough trips. Hence why a lot of people, myself included, now tend to use the car over rail.

I don’t think so, because the service to Rainham wasn’t originally planned for when the 700s were ordered, AIUI. The original plan was more services into Surrey/Sussex, but those were shelved when the Windmill Bridge junction rebuild was canned.

This seems to be exactly correct. Rainham uses quite a few 700/0s, not least because the journey is so slow. We can also probably say that the 700s haven’t really lived up to the marvellous level of availability we were told on here would be the case.

It seems to be the case that the recent shift away from 700/0 on GN in favour of 387s has been done to give some slack in the 700 fleet. And to be fair it has helped, as “cancelled due to a fault with the train” is now rare, but what we do see is 700/0s deployed on 700/1 diagrams. Better an 8-car train than no train of course, but after being in service for over 6 years availability seems to have settled to where it’s going to be. In essence there isn’t the option to work the fleet harder to find units for Maidstone. Which given the impacts this would have on GN performance is definitely for the best.

If Maidstone is dead and Littlehampton now run by Southern that would suggest that there is surplus rolling stock.

I think I’m right in saying the Littlehampton 700/1 is accounted for by a 700/1 diagram now covering one of the peak Peterborough fasts. At the moment this is allowing some slack in the 387 fleet (which don’t forget is having mods done to it), however ISTR the plan is for extra Peterborough services from this summer timetable. Being peak trips this is going to require quite a few extra units.

Remember GN has lost 21x365s, and Southern has lost 46x455 and 19x313. That is one hell of a loss.

 

[whoosh]

Is ATO in the central section 100% operational on all services?

Nowhere near. ETCS (the in-cab signalling that ATO works on) training has not been completed for all the drivers yet.

Also, what has become of the GTR depot at Ashford?

It's still there. 30 - 36-ish drivers based there. They do Sevenoaks to Blackfriars/Welwyn Garden City, and I think do Orpington to Kentish Town as well. Lots of passing and taxis.
My personal guess is that they were given Welwyn Garden City work instead of the originally planned Orpington depot, so that they sign some of the way to Cambridge already, and therefore the training costs for a future Maidstone service would be more favourable.
Total guess though.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Do we really "need" 700s to Rainham? Surely sending them down the Maidstone East line would be more useful?

 

[D7666]

Is the current Thameslink service in its final state?

No.

Just in state.

 

[bramling]

Do we really "need" 700s to Rainham? Surely sending them down the Maidstone East line would be more useful?

Depends. Remember the whole Thameslink thing is based on joining up services either side of the river. So if you ditch Rainham, this leaves the Luton to London service group with no corresponding service south of the river. In theory you could send them to Maidstone instead, however that doesn’t deliver a through Cambridge to Maidstone service, though it might free up a very small number of 700/0 units.

If there was a great desire for Cambridge to get extra core services, finding a way of joining the existing service to the Sevenoaks to Blackfriars route would be the obvious starting point. I wouldn’t be advocating it though, as joining the Cambridge stopping services into the Thameslink network would just about finish off any semblance of dependability left on the GN side.

In addition to all the above, I can’t remember if there were pathing issues with the Maidstone service. If I remember rightly the bigger issue seems to have been 24tph, and also (unspoken) the lack of 700/0s. As soon as the diagrams first came out, it was clear the 700/0 fleet was essentially fully committed thanks to Rainham.

It also has to be borne in mind that you want to join 12-car services with 12-car services. Rainham is already less than optimal as it locks the route into 8-car trains on infrastructure which can handle more. In that sense Luton to Maidstone might actually have more merit than Rainham, though if you revert Rainham to Southeastern then what stock will work it?

 

[D7666]

Do we really "need" 700s to Rainham? Surely sending them down the Maidstone East line would be more useful?

Not sure that is any kind of useful argument.

You could say that about any two destinations i.e. is 2 TPH Horsham more or less useful or logical than say East Grinstead (by which I mean all day 2 TPH not just the peaks),

 

[James H]

Is there any scope for extending the operating hours of the through Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks service?

Selfishly, an all-day link between Elephant & Castle and the GN would be very helpful

 

[43066]

It's still there. 30 - 36-ish drivers based there. They do Sevenoaks to Blackfriars/Welwyn Garden City, and I think do Orpington to Kentish Town as well. Lots of passing and taxis.
My personal guess is that they were given Welwyn Garden City work instead of the originally planned Orpington depot, so that they sign some of the way to Cambridge already, and therefore the training costs for a future Maidstone service would be more favourable.
Total guess though.

Thanks. I remember the bonkers arrangement of them being taxied to Orpington/Sevenoaks raised a few eyebrows when it began, but of course it was only ever supposed to be a temporary solution. Nice work of you can get it - albeit no doubt comes with some horrendous book on/off times to compensate!

I think the original plan was for them to do Ashford - WGC?

 

[bramling]

Is there any scope for extending the operating hours of the through Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks service?

Selfishly, an all-day link between Elephant & Castle and the GN would be very helpful

In theory yes, as there is space both in the core and on the GN. But is there demand, especially bearing in mind the Moorgate services are now cut to 2tph off peak. I’d have thought there would be a clamour to get that back to 4tph before anything else.

Were there to be an all-day Welwyn to Sevenoaks, I wonder if it would be viable to make the Cambridge service fast from Hatfield to Finsbury Park. That would probably please quite a few people. However this is all getting rather speculative.

Thanks. I remember the bonkers arrangement of them being taxied to Orpington/Sevenoaks raised a few eyebrows when it began, but of course it was only ever supposed to be a temporary solution. Nice work of you can get it - albeit no doubt comes with some horrendous book on/off times to compensate!

I think the original plan was for them to do Ashford - WGC?

Maidstone to Cambridge, with a few extensions from and to Ashford for stabling purposes only. Quite crazy when one thinks about it, having a route with a substantial proportion of both drivers and trains based many miles off it.

 

[43066]

Maidstone to Cambridge, with a few extensions from and to Ashford for stabling purposes only. Quite crazy when one thinks about it, having a route with a substantial proportion of both drivers and trains based many miles off it.

Thanks, that certainly rings a bell!

 

[jon0844]

In theory yes, as there is space both in the core and on the GN. But is there demand, especially bearing in mind the Moorgate services are now cut to 2tph off peak. I’d have thought there would be a clamour to get that back to 4tph before anything else.

Were there to be an all-day Welwyn to Sevenoaks, I wonder if it would be viable to make the Cambridge service fast from Hatfield to Finsbury Park. That would probably please quite a few people. However this is all getting rather speculative.

I've thought that with WGC, Hatfield and Potters Bar (and now Alexandra Palace!) not getting connections to the core, making the Sevenoaks service run to WGC all day would make sense. It would increase capacity, especially in the evening when there's just 1tph from King's Cross - even if the service dropped to 1tph.

It also doesn't impact the 2C/2L/2R services if the core goes tits up. It also provides more capacity for stations like New Barnet, given we haven't got to 4tph all day on the inners.

 

[bramling]

I've thought that with WGC, Hatfield and Potters Bar (and now Alexandra Palace!) not getting connections to the core, making the Sevenoaks service run to WGC all day would make sense. It would increase capacity, especially in the evening when there's just 1tph from King's Cross - even if the service dropped to 1tph.

It also doesn't impact the 2C/2L/2R services if the core goes tits up. It also provides more capacity for stations like New Barnet, given we haven't got to 4tph all day on the inners.

I tend to agree, however the optics aren’t great when we have half the expensively purchased 717 fleet sitting idle!

 

[jon0844]

I tend to agree, however the optics aren’t great when we have half the expensively purchased 717 fleet sitting idle!

Does Sevenoaks need 8 cars? Fit the toilet in the 717 and run those WGC to SEV instead.

 

[bramling]

Does Sevenoaks need 8 cars? Fit the toilet in the 717 and run those WGC to SEV instead.

One does wonder at what point the powers that be will make a decision on

* reinstating the full 2019 Moorgate service

Or

* deploying a proportion of the 717 fleet elsewhere. 12 cars on the fast Peterborough services isn’t actually so fanciful (are the 717s 100mph now?)

It’s quite incredible just how mixed up the whole 2018 GN/TL plan has now become as a result of Covid.

 

[jon0844]

In the evening, 1tph from King's Cross is IMO awful. Irrespective of the capacity issue, which may well be manageable with lower passenger numbers, the fact you need to wait an hour is simply not on - and trains are getting busier all the time.

Sure, you can go to Finsbury Park to increase your options, but that's still not a very nice place to be even with the various upgrades.

Perhaps 4tph on the inners in the day isn't as vital, and since Grant Shapps got all the peak time trains to stop at Brookmans Park he seems to have lost interest interfering with things and asking TfL to take over.

It also seems that there are far less passengers using the train to go to Arsenal or other London teams, so gone are the days of football crowd busters where a spare 717 or two parked up might be useful.

The question is, while some plans might be considered 'dead' we should probably assume that despite the setback, we will eventually end up back on track (sic) where we need to make the necessary capacity improvements that the whole 'Railplan 20/20' was all about.

 

[bramling]

In the evening, 1tph from King's Cross is IMO awful. Irrespective of the capacity issue, which may well be manageable with lower passenger numbers, the fact you need to wait an hour is simply not on - and trains are getting busier all the time.

Agreed. It should be 2tph at least as far as Letchworth. It’s quite incredible really when one considers it has been 2tph right back to the 1990s - though of course the trains are double the length now.

It should be noted however that I’ve been on some evening services recently and been one of only about 5 in the carriage leaving Finsbury Park. So clearly the demand is still well down. How much of this is down to Covid and how much due to poor dependability in general is a matter for debate!

It also seems that there are far less passengers using the train to go to Arsenal or other London teams, so gone are the days of football crowd busters where a spare 717 or two parked up might be useful.

I suspect anyone using the train for football purposes will have long since given up. I know here there’s been a fair few instances where people have turned up at weekends and found effectively no service. And I know the staff here have really taken some abuse in those situations where people have essentially not been able to get to their match. So it’s not really surprising no one bothers now.

Come back FCC all is forgiven!

The question is, while some plans might be considered 'dead' we should probably assume that despite the setback, we will eventually end up back on track (sic) where we need to make the necessary capacity improvements that the whole 'Railplan 20/20' was all about.

Agreed. At some point the demand is going to return. Indeed one wonders just how much is being suppressed by the poor timetable and general unreliability.

 

[jon0844]

The regular East Coast Digital Programme and industrial action must be impacting leisure travel at weekends, and I do think many football fans probably now drive to Cockfosters.

I'm more likely to travel from St Pancras to St Albans where there's a far better service frequency every day than have a night out, get stuck on the tube or something and have to wait an hour for the next train. Sunday was always a pain, but now it's 7 days a week.

 

[bramling]

The regular East Coast Digital Programme and industrial action must be impacting leisure travel at weekends, and I do think many football fans probably now drive to Cockfosters.

I'm more likely to travel from St Pancras to St Albans where there's a far better service frequency every day than have a night out, get stuck on the tube or something and have to wait an hour for the next train. Sunday was always a pain, but now it's 7 days a week.

I guess this all goes back to the Johnson government, which never had the backbone to declare a “back to 2019” moment after all the Covid shenanigans. We kind of really needed to do that, as so much in this country now just doesn’t work well, trains being a case in point. We have effectively undone years of very expensive capacity work almost overnight. The A1(M) is as busy as ever, right through the day, so clearly there is demand for travel.

 

[Magdalia]

Remember the whole Thameslink thing is based on joining up services either side of the river.

Absolutely, but that needs to be within the constraints of how the infrastructure was upgraded between 2009 and 2018.

Do we really "need" 700s to Rainham? Surely sending them down the Maidstone East line would be more useful?

This isn't an either/or, it is a neither. Thameslink is not designed for trains crossing South Eastern services on the level beyond London Bridge.

If there was a great desire for Cambridge to get extra core services

Which there isn't. Cambridge has 2tph to Brighton.

I wouldn’t be advocating it though, as joining the Cambridge stopping services into the Thameslink network would just about finish off any semblance of dependability left on the GN side.

Combined with the Peterborough service there are already enough/too many Thameslink trains through the 2 track section at Digswell, which is the epicentre of GN dependability.

In theory yes, as there is space both in the core and on the GN.

But on the GN only out as far as Welwyn Garden City.

I've thought that with WGC, Hatfield and Potters Bar (and now Alexandra Palace!) not getting connections to the core,

This is the most important loss from the Cambridge stoppers not going into the core. All of the important stations Stevenage and northwards already have trains to/from the core.

making the Sevenoaks service run to WGC all day would make sense

This delivers connectivity to the core for WCC, Hatfield and Potters Bar without fouling up the 2 track section at Digswell. It also links the Maidstone line out as far as Otford with the core.

 

[cle]

It's far more important to have the London connectivity (south/southeast <> Core and Finsbury Park) - than thinking that anyone travels from Cambridge to the Maidstone line, which is among the least used radial lines from London.

If anything, exploring Tat/Cats or the semi-fast Epsom as the 'other ends' of northern services, including Rainham, makes more sense.

Those might then enable more services elsewhere out of Victoria or LB shed - although the biggest issue here is that South London barely has any places with good capacity to turnback services. Even Epsom is two islands and blocks two lines. Only really Orpington is good for this. Maybe more could be sent to East Grinstead. But offpeak, London should be the priority.

 

[Magdalia]

If anything, exploring Tat/Cats or the semi-fast Epsom as the 'other ends' of northern services, including Rainham, makes more sense.

Cats and Tats could only work with separate services as it isn't possible to do splitting and joining with class 700s.

The semi fast Epsoms are a post 2018 development and do have potential as part of Thameslink.

the biggest issue here is that South London barely has any places with good capacity to turnback services. Even Epsom is two islands and blocks two lines.

The place well equipped for reversing is Dorking, where the middle platform only turns 1tph in the current timetable.

 

[PGAT]

Epsom has two sidings to reverse in

 

[Mikey C]

Now Rainham has been in the timetable for a while, I think it will be difficult to get rid off. Especially since Woolwich line passengers lost their Charing Cross service, it's the only non Cannon Street service on that line.