The end of Radio 4 on longwave, and other radio oddities/broadcasts of interest

[Peter C]

I note that there is already an existing thread on this subject:

Smart Meters - after switch-off of BBC Radio Long Wave

I had an interesting letter from my energy supplier today saying that: "The BBC Longwave radio transmission that switches Radio Teleswitch (RTS) meters from peak to off-peak times is ending on 30 June 2025. Without this technology to tell your RTS meter when to switch between peak and...

www.railforums.co.uk

I had an interesting letter from my energy supplier today [...]

But that one is focused on the end of the RTS (Radio Teleswitch Service). I've made this thread to discuss the end of Radio 4 on longwave at the end of this month in terms of the programming and also any other radio oddities or interesting bits-and-bobs.

I've found myself a LW/MW/FM radio to listen to the last few weeks of R4 on LW and have found that although the signal is not as clear and crisp as FM or DAB of course, it's more consistent than FM in my location. I must say I don't mind the quality of the LW signal actually. Interestingly, there don't seem to have been any messages broadcast to alert listeners to the fact that LW transmissions will cease at the end of the month - though I suppose that it gets very few listeners really in the grand scheme of things so there might not be much point (anyone who still listens in on LW will likely already know).

It's particularly fun to listen to programmes about AI via a medium which goes back around 100 years. Actually thinking about it the idea of listening to longwave radio could fit in the 'Things which seem anachronistic' thread...

-Peter

 

[Furryanimal]

Wasn’t Radio 2 on Longwave before Radio 4?
We cricket fans have a certain affection for LW as Test Match Special found a home there after being booted off Radio 3…now settled on Sports Extra of course.
Atlantic 252 and a short lived sports station were on there and RTE took over 252 KHz for a while.
And there were all the French stations one of which had a daily short English Language bulletin aimed at tourists that I stumbled across.
And after being taught about it in school I understand the Shipping Forecast.
And I always enjoyed seeing the Droitwich transmitter from the motorway.
Have an idea there is /was another LW transmitter in Scotland.

 

[GusB]

Have an idea there is /was another LW transmitter in Scotland.

There are two - Westerglen and Burghead. Both sites transmit R4 on 198kHz, as well as other stations. I live about a 2 miles away from the latter and it's a prominent landmark.

 

[Peter C]

Wasn’t Radio 2 on Longwave before Radio 4?
We cricket fans have a certain affection for LW as Test Match Special found a home there after being booted off Radio 3…now settled on Sports Extra of course.
Atlantic 252 and a short lived sports station were on there and RTE took over 252 KHz for a while.
And there were all the French stations one of which had a daily short English Language bulletin aimed at tourists that I stumbled across.
And after being taught about it in school I understand the Shipping Forecast.
And I always enjoyed seeing the Droitwich transmitter from the motorway.
Have an idea there is /was another LW transmitter in Scotland.

Yes Radio 2 was on 200 kHz up to 1978 I believe. Funny you mention Test Match Special as the portable radio I've got (a small Roberts Sports 984) has the frequencies for both Test Match Special and Radio 5 Live printed on the case. A nice little feature.
There was a celebration of the Shipping Forecast on Radio 4 a while ago (I can't remember the specifics) and it's still a favourite amongst listeners. I think my favourite version (nerdy I know) is the last one of the day, broadcast at 00:48 - you get 'Sailing By' beforehand and then afterwards, when the station closes down for the night, it still ends with the national anthem before the World Service takes over.

-Peter

 

[adc82140]

Radio 4 probably won't leave LW this month. What's happening is the wind down of RTS signals, which could take until the autumn. The BBC won't mind, the electricity industry is paying for the service, not them.

 

[PeterC]

With car radios in the 60s and 70s the great thing about long wave was that you could manage a long trip without needing to retune.

After regularly driving up and down the A40 and A44 to see my girlfriend in the early 70s I still associate Gerrards Cross with Sing Something Simple as that would be the time I was passing through on Sunday night.

 

[BingMan]

. I live about a 2 miles away from the latter and it's a prominent landmark.

If you put up a large wire mesh fence you could half your electricity bill _

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2025 ==

Yes Radio 2 was on 200 kHz up to 1978 I believe. Funny you mention Test Match Special as the portable radio I've got (a small Roberts Sports 984) has the frequencies for both Test Match Special and Radio 5 Live printed on the case. A nice little feature.
There was a celebration of the Shipping Forecast on Radio 4 a while ago (I can't remember the specifics) and it's still a favourite amongst listeners. I think my favourite version (nerdy I know) is the last one of the day, broadcast at 00:48 - you get 'Sailing By' beforehand and then afterwards, when the station closes down for the night, it still ends with the national anthem before the World Service takes over.

-Peter

I laways laugh when they say things like "Strong winds and heavy rain, GOOD!"

 

[GusB]

There was a celebration of the Shipping Forecast on Radio 4 a while ago (I can't remember the specifics) and it's still a favourite amongst listeners. I think my favourite version (nerdy I know) is the last one of the day, broadcast at 00:48 - you get 'Sailing By' beforehand and then afterwards, when the station closes down for the night, it still ends with the national anthem before the World Service takes over.

It was on New Year's Day, celebrating 100 years of the shipping forecast. There were some interesting programmes broadcast that day.

After regularly driving up and down the A40 and A44 to see my girlfriend in the early 70s I still associate Gerrards Cross with Sing Something Simple as that would be the time I was passing through on Sunday night.

I recall hearing Sing Something Simple, but only because it was it came on after the Top 40 on a Sunday. At that point Radio 1 didn't have its own FM frequencies and would "borrow" Radio 2's on a Sunday between 4 and 7pm (and certain other times - I can't remember now).

 

[Trackman]

I used to listen to TMS on LW, it's that shortwave sound that makes it.
In latter years I used to listen to Atlantic 252 on LW in the car and so did a lot of people.

 

[Bevan Price]

I will miss LW when R4 finally departs. Here, it gives much better reception than VHF or DAB on small portable radios that I sometimes carry from room to room (or into the garden). .

And using DAB eats battery capacity on portable radios - and some rechargeable batteries do not seem to provide sufficient voltage to satisfactorily work DAB portable radios.

 

[ac6000cw]

There's an interesting (relatively technical) history of the Droitwich transmitter station, opened in 1934, here - https://www.bbceng.info/Operations/transmitter_ops/Reminiscences/Droitwich/droitwich_calling.htm

Interestingly the original power source for the site was four 6-cylinder 750hp English Electric diesel engines driving 415V three-phase alternators (photo). The station was connected to the public electricity supply four years later and the EE diesel gensets became reserve power for the next 50 years until replaced by modern standby diesel gensets in the late 1980s.

The LW transmitters were last replaced in 1985, so I expect would have to be replaced soon if LW was to continue (the cost of which I assume is a major factor in deciding to discontinue it).

 

[Peter C]

It was on New Year's Day, celebrating 100 years of the shipping forecast. There were some interesting programmes broadcast that day.

Yes thanks for that. I didn't get to listen in to all of the programmes but did catch up with some of them on BBC Sounds. Very nice stuff.

There's an interesting (relatively technical) history of the Droitwich transmitter station, opened in 1934, here - https://www.bbceng.info/Operations/transmitter_ops/Reminiscences/Droitwich/droitwich_calling.htm

Interestingly the original power source for the site was four 6-cylinder 750hp English Electric diesel engines driving 415V three-phase alternators (photo). The station was connected to the public electricity supply four years later and the EE diesel gensets became reserve power for the next 50 years until replaced by modern standby diesel gensets in the late 1980s.

The LW transmitters were last replaced in 1985, so I expect would have to be replaced soon if LW was to continue (the cost of which I assume is a major factor in deciding to discontinue it).

I think the problem with LW now is that the valves used are coming to the end of their working lives and apparently there are only a few left in the world (and even they can't be guaranteed to work for very long in the grand scheme of things from what I've read). It seems that the BBC have made the decision (not unreasonably, given that situation) that it's better to choose the time to end LW now rather than let the valves decide for themselves when they fail and take the station off the air halfway through the Today programme

-Peter

 

[Shrewbly]

Back in the early eighties, I went on a tour of the Droitwich transmitters. We were told then, that due to the lack of suitable valves, long wave transmissions probably only had another ten or so years left! Those valves seem to have lasted well.

 

[dgl]

In reality new valves could be made to the original specifications as it's not like new transmitter valves are not being made at all anymore (and I doubt they would be as hideously expensive as the BBC claims), or the transmitters could be replaced as LW compatible transmitters that are powerful enough are still being made, https://www.nautel.com/products/am-transmitters/nx-series/ for example.
In an emergency keeping R4 longwave at least on standby would be very useful given it's service area and the simplicity of the equipment needed to receive AM broadcasts.

 

[Peter C]

In reality new valves could be made to the original specifications as it's not like new transmitter valves are not being made at all anymore (and I doubt they would be as hideously expensive as the BBC claims), or the transmitters could be replaced as LW compatible transmitters that are powerful enough are still being made, https://www.nautel.com/products/am-transmitters/nx-series/ for example.
In an emergency keeping R4 longwave at least on standby would be very useful given it's service area and the simplicity of the equipment needed to receive AM broadcasts.

Yes those are my thoughts too really. I read somewhere that LW is surprisingly energy efficient given there are only three transmitters which cover the whole of the UK rather than the 200-odd for FM, and as you say the receiving equipment is really simple (and can be run on an AA or AAA battery or two for ages).

-Peter

 

[DelW]

Fortunately my TMS Radio 4 LW hat will still work on AM and FM for a while yet

 

[Peter C]

Fortunately my TMS Radio 4 LW hat will still work on AM and FM for a while yet

View attachment 182010

This hat goes top of the list of 'best hats to be seen wearing this summer'. Absolutely superb!

-Peter

 

[EveningStar]

There's an interesting (relatively technical) history of the Droitwich transmitter station, opened in 1934, here - https://www.bbceng.info/Operations/transmitter_ops/Reminiscences/Droitwich/droitwich_calling.htm

Interestingly the original power source for the site was four 6-cylinder 750hp English Electric diesel engines driving 415V three-phase alternators (photo). The station was connected to the public electricity supply four years later and the EE diesel gensets became reserve power for the next 50 years until replaced by modern standby diesel gensets in the late 1980s.

The LW transmitters were last replaced in 1985, so I expect would have to be replaced soon if LW was to continue (the cost of which I assume is a major factor in deciding to discontinue it).

Interesting read thank you. Living in Bromsgrove late 1970s we always referred to that station by the location in Wychbold, and a measure of how powerful was demonstrated to me when I was setting up, actually in Bromsgrove several miles up the road, some sound engineering for a never going to go anywhere band and was able, using the lead singers' microphone cable, to tune into the radio over the system. Apparently the church in Wychbold could not have a mains PA system because of radio breakthrough and needed a simple battery system.

 

[ac6000cw]

In reality new valves could be made to the original specifications as it's not like new transmitter valves are not being made at all anymore (and I doubt they would be as hideously expensive as the BBC claims), or the transmitters could be replaced as LW compatible transmitters that are powerful enough are still being made, https://www.nautel.com/products/am-transmitters/nx-series/ for example.
In an emergency keeping R4 longwave at least on standby would be very useful given it's service area and the simplicity of the equipment needed to receive AM broadcasts.

I agree with you that if the BBC actually wanted to keep the LW service going they could, but honestly I don't think there's any point when you can listen to Radio 4 on DAB, FM, Freeview and streamed over the internet on a multiplicity of networks (e.g. landline, mobile phone, public Wi-Fi, satellite etc.).

Also, from the 'emergency standby' point of view, having a single transmitter site for most of the coverage area also means you have a single point of failure (and vulnerability to hostile action), versus e.g. the internet which is by design fault tolerant/resilient.

In the long term, I think we'll probably only have DAB as a traditional over-the-air radio broadcast service. FM and AM (on MW and LW) will be consigned to history, and their frequency spectrum re-allocated to something more useful. Terrestrial Freeview TV on UHF will go the same way eventually.

 

[dgl]

I can't see FM actually disappearing, primarily as the frequencies are not much good for anything else, there's just not the bandwidth plus reception requires larger aerials or which even a 1/4 wavelength probably wouldn't fit in the average smartphone.

Of course the single point of failure with Droitwich is an important point, but atleast all you'd need to keep it on the air is a generator and a supply of diesel. Distributed information networks seem like a better idea but they need a lot of kit and a lot of power to keep going, I doubt most mobile phone base stations would stay working for long (if at all) if the power went out, assuming the backend network was still functional.

 

[ac6000cw]

Of course the single point of failure with Droitwich is an important point, but at least all you'd need to keep it on the air is a generator and a supply of diesel.

That doesn't help if a bomb/missile/severe weather event has destroyed the antenna system or the transmitter equipment (or the comms link carrying the transmission content).

 

[dosxuk]

That doesn't help if a bomb/missile/severe weather event has destroyed the antenna system or the transmitter equipment (or the comms link carrying the transmission content).

Much of the detail is not in the public domain, but it's worth remembering that these facilities were built in the post-war period, and operated throughout the cold war, and was designed and engineered with that in mind. In the past there was a fairly well known line that Radio 4 (as is now) falling off the air would be the first sign the country has fallen in the event of an invasion / attack.

 

[DelW]

I can't see FM actually disappearing, primarily as the frequencies are not much good for anything else, there's just not the bandwidth plus reception requires larger aerials or which even a 1/4 wavelength probably wouldn't fit in the average smartphone.

Switching off FM was being talked about over a decade ago, with a date in the mid 20-teens being the intention, depending on take-up of digital listening. But take-up of DAB was slower than expected, and there were objections that few cars (then) had DAB radios, and that it would hardly have been environmentally sensible to cause mass dumping of working but suddenly useless analogue radios. Indeed many older analogue radios are much better built than their modern equivalents. FM also has better sound quality than many low-bit-rate broadcasts or streams.

AIUI it's currently planned that FM will continue until at least 2030. Although streaming is steadily eroding the FM/AM listening base, it's quite likely that there will be campaigns to continue beyond then. There's something of a resurgence of interest in pre-digital technologies, notably vinyl LPs and film cameras, and radio might see a similar trend.

 

[Peter C]

I've just heard a snippet of the news on PM which said that the Radio Teleswitch Service will be phased out 'selectively' over the summer rather than just stopped at the end of this month. Nothing about R4 longwave specifically but as it's related I thought it's worth mentioning.

-Peter

 

[JamesT]

Switching off FM was being talked about over a decade ago, with a date in the mid 20-teens being the intention, depending on take-up of digital listening. But take-up of DAB was slower than expected, and there were objections that few cars (then) had DAB radios, and that it would hardly have been environmentally sensible to cause mass dumping of working but suddenly useless analogue radios. Indeed many older analogue radios are much better built than their modern equivalents. FM also has better sound quality than many low-bit-rate broadcasts or streams.

AIUI it's currently planned that FM will continue until at least 2030. Although streaming is steadily eroding the FM/AM listening base, it's quite likely that there will be campaigns to continue beyond then. There's something of a resurgence of interest in pre-digital technologies, notably vinyl LPs and film cameras, and radio might see a similar trend.

I wonder if FM might last longer than DVB-T. I believe the current licences for the latter run till 2034. Mass shifting to internet streaming and reusing the frequencies for mobile phones seems more plausible for TV than radio.

 

[DelW]

I wonder if FM might last longer than DVB-T. I believe the current licences for the latter run till 2034. Mass shifting to internet streaming and reusing the frequencies for mobile phones seems more plausible for TV than radio.

There may be other benefits in keeping traditional broadcast radio separate from streaming. It can keep working when internet streams have gone down, and is possibly less vulnerable to attack by hostile foreign agencies.

During the recent power grid collapse in Spain and Portugal, battery radios were in high demand.

Spain-Portugal blackouts: how radio stations have been more essential than ever - The Fix

When all else failed, radio stations resisted and kept the Iberian Peninsula informed during the massive power outage. We spoke to one Portuguese radio station to see how they experienced that special day.

thefix.media

WiFi, mobile networks, social media, news websites or access to the television was not possible. At the same time, radio stations – on national, regional, and local levels – were able to inform the population with special broadcasts lasting several hours, thanks to generators.

Many people pulled out their old transistor radios or gathered in groups in the street around a radio to learn about the latest events. Many pictures were subsequently published to thank these radio stations for their essential work in times of crisis.