Ticket machine not working

[JamesDrew]

Yesterday I purchased a ticket from Amberley to Wimbledon via Trainline app. The ticket was a spilt ticket and required printing at the ticket machine (ie not available as an e-ticket).

The ticket machine at Amberley station was in very bright sunshine and the screen was hot, which I think adversely affected its touch sensitivity. I spent 10 minutes trying to print the tickets and then gave up as the train was due.

So I had to make the journey with details of the ticket purchase on my phone but no actual ticket.

There was no ticket check but I’m curious as to whether there would have been any penalty fare or fine levied in this situation? I think I recall a notice saying £100 fine minimum if travelling without a ticket.

 

[methecooldude]

Collection codes are not tickets and therefore you may have been issued a penalty fare or reported. The difficulty you would have faced is proving that the machine was unusable as the system logs would show everything in working order. If it happens again, I would suggest taking a video of your attempt to use the machine, just in case

 

[JamesDrew]

Collection codes are not tickets and therefore you may have been issued a penalty fare or reported. The difficulty you would have faced is proving that the machine was unusable as the system logs would show everything in working order. If it happens again, I would suggest taking a video of your attempt to use the machine, just in case

Thanks, it’s interesting that the onus is on the customer to prove the ticket machine isn’t working, eg by taking a video as you suggest. (And even a video wouldn’t necessarily prove machine malfunction). It begs the question why the full range of tickets are not available as e-tickets.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks, it’s interesting that the onus is on the customer to prove the ticket machine isn’t working, eg by taking a video as you suggest. (And even a video wouldn’t necessarily prove machine malfunction). It begs the question why the full range of tickets are not available as e-tickets.

There is no strict obligation on the customer to do that. But gathering the evidence protects them should they be accused of committing a Byelaw offence by boarding without a ticket, or be issued with a Penalty Fare.

 

[island]

Thanks, it’s interesting that the onus is on the customer to prove the ticket machine isn’t working, eg by taking a video as you suggest. (And even a video wouldn’t necessarily prove machine malfunction). It begs the question why the full range of tickets are not available as e-tickets.

TfL doesn't accept e-tickets in most cases, so any ticket with cross-London validity will only be fulfilled to credit card size ticket.

 

[Kite159]

...

TfL doesn't accept e-tickets in most cases, so any ticket with cross-London validity will only be fulfilled to credit card size ticket.

Even if the ticket doesn't have cross-London validity, there are some flows where the tickets are fulfilled to credit card sized tickets rather than e-tickets. Especially if the journey has the potential to include London Overground (i.e. if Trainline sold the OP a ticket for Amberley to East Croydon and an East Croydon - Wimbledon ticket, as those are generally issued to the East/West Croydon station group)

 

[Iggy12a]

The last time I collected a ticket at Amberley I had exactly the same problem. Fortunately with persistence I did manage to get the ticket to print.

I emailed customer services reporting the problem with the screen and asking what I should do the next time.

They said to speak to the onboard supervisor, explain the problem and ask them to print it.

Sadly they don't seem to have actually got around to replacing the screen.

 

[Haywain]

Sadly they don't seem to have actually got around to replacing the screen.

If the problem only occurs in certain conditions it would probably not achieve anything.

 

[Krokodil]

Thanks, it’s interesting that the onus is on the customer to prove the ticket machine isn’t working, eg by taking a video as you suggest. (And even a video wouldn’t necessarily prove machine malfunction). It begs the question why the full range of tickets are not available as e-tickets.

It's a tricky fault for the machine to self-report

 

[Haywain]

It's a tricky fault for the machine to self-report

I get the impression that it isn't a fault that the machine would be able to recognise as such, in the same way that the machine would not be able to recognise that a touch screen was misaligned (working, but not recognising the correct position of the touch).

 

[JamesDrew]

It's a tricky fault for the machine to self-report

I suppose what I meant is that there will likely be the presumption by the railway company that the machine is working rather than the presumption that the passenger is telling the truth.

But then maybe there are far more passengers who lie about ticket machines not working than there are machines genuinely not working? Who knows?!

 

[Krokodil]

I get the impression that it isn't a fault that the machine would be able to recognise as such, in the same way that the machine would not be able to recognise that a touch screen was misaligned (working, but not recognising the correct position of the touch).

Exactly.

 

[duffield]

TVMs clearly need a self-testing mechanism involving a pop-out robotic finger with camera attachment, to ensure the machine is working from the customer's point of view.

 

[KirkstallOne]

This all leads back to the rather controversial section 60 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 much mentioned in the context of the Post Office scandal:

Removal of restriction on use of evidence from computer records.​

Section 69 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (evidence from computer records inadmissible unless conditions relating to proper use and operation of computer shown to be satisfied) shall cease to have effect.

Which if I understand commentary on here correctly places the onus back on the passenger to evidence any defence that relies on a device malfunction.

 

[SouthernOne]

I would suggest, if this happens again, make yourself known to the member of staff on the train, if there is one. Some Southern guards / Onboard supervisors still issue the credit card size tickets, and they will be able to issue the cross London connections tickets!

 

[enyoueffsea]

I would suggest, if this happens again, make yourself known to the member of staff on the train, if there is one. Some Southern guards / Onboard supervisors still issue the credit card size tickets, and they will be able to issue the cross London connections tickets!

You also look a lot less like you are trying it on if you proactively seek the guard out rather than only explaining about your issues when challenged.

 

[Kite159]

You also look a lot less like you are trying it on if you proactively seek the guard out rather than only explaining about your issues when challenged.

Especially when using a retailer which will automatically refund any uncollected tickets.

 

[island]

This all leads back to the rather controversial section 60 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 much mentioned in the context of the Post Office scandal:



Which if I understand commentary on here correctly places the onus back on the passenger to evidence any defence that relies on a device malfunction.

S60 YJCEA did not, I think, change anything relevant to the matter under discussion. The relevant section is section 101 of the Magistrates Court Act 1980.

Where the defendant to an information or complaint relies for his defence on any exception, exemption, proviso, excuse or qualification, whether or not it accompanies the description of the offence or matter of complaint in the enactment creating the offence or on which the complaint is founded, the burden or proving the exception, exemption, proviso, excuse or qualification shall be on him; and this notwithstanding that the information or complaint contains an allegation negativing the exception, exemption, proviso, excuse or qualification.

In this case, the exception is created by Railway Byelaw 18.3.1, which states:

no person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey

These byelaws date to July 2005 though I understand they replaced byelaws of similar effect.

In summary, it is the case that where a passenger wishes to advance a defence to a byelaw prosecution that there were no functional ticketing facilities at their starting station, it is for the defence to prove same (on the balance of probabilities).

 

[JamesDrew]

S60 YJCEA did not, I think, change anything relevant to the matter under discussion. The relevant section is section 101 of the Magistrates Court Act 1980.

In this case, the exception is created by Railway Byelaw 18.3.1, which states:

These byelaws date to July 2005 though I understand they replaced byelaws of similar effect.

In summary, it is the case that where a passenger wishes to advance a defence to a byelaw prosecution that there were no functional ticketing facilities at their starting station, it is for the defence to prove same (on the balance of probabilities).

Thank you for this. It was exactly this aspect that I’d been wondering about! On reflection it makes sense that the burden of proof is on the passenger to prove the ticket machine was not working, and also that it is the civil standard of proof that is required.