Timetable change/improvement in Forest of Bowland from 8th April

[Ken H]

The 11 Horton in Ribblesdale - Tosside, currently operated by North Yorkshire County Council, is to be extended to Clitheroe from 8th April. This fills a bus free hole in Bowland.
Passes a lot of nothing and takes 1hr 15min from Settle to Clitheroe.
Kudos to N Yorks and Lancashire for trying
Timetable here (Link goes to pdf of timetable from Dales Bus website)

https://www.dalesbus.org/uploads/1/1/3/9/113919127/11.pdf

 

[JKP]

Who is the operator of the new timetable? I have never heard of 21 Travel.

The timetable requires two buses. Interestingly one appears to run over the afternoon school peak in the afternoon the 15.50 Settle to Horton.

 

[stevieinselby]

This is reinstating a service that has run previously. (Dates below are approximate)
About 20 years ago, there was a service B10 that ran about every 1½ hours between Clitheroe and Settle.

This was then changed to a service running between Clitheroe and Slaidburn every hour (alternating between the circuitous route via Dunsop Bridge and the direct service via Waddington), and a separate service running about 5 times a day between Slaidburn, Settle and Horton-in-R, with connections between the two at Slaidburn.

Subsequently, NYCC cut the service back from Slaidburn to Tosside when they started running it in-house, which seemed like nothing more than spiteful to avoid going into Lancashire, as the cost of fuel for those extra few miles when they had a driver and bus out there anyway would have been tiny.
Over time, the LCC-sponsored service between Clitheroe and Slaidburn was whittled down and by 2016 it was running a few journeys a day on a circular service (out via Dunsop Bridge, back via Waddington) on weekdays only, and was then cut altogether, leaving Whitewell, Dunsop Bridge, Newton and Slaidburn with no service at all except for a couple of summer Sunday Dalesbus routes for one or two years. It's great to see that LCC are using BSIP funding to right that wrong and reinstate services on what I would say is a very generous timetable.

Who is the operator of the new timetable? I have never heard of 21 Travel.

The timetable requires two buses. Interestingly one appears to run over the afternoon school peak in the afternoon the 15.50 Settle to Horton.

They appear to be a new company that is taking on a load of contracts right across North Yorkshire, both stage carriage and school services, as far afield as Ryedale, Harrogate and Settle. There's a suggestion that they have grown from a taxi and home-to-school transport operation based around Selby and Goole, although information online (including what appears to be their own website and Facebook pages) is incredibly sketchy and doesn't instil a whole lot of confidence.

 

[Ken H]

Who is the operator of the new timetable? I have never heard of 21 Travel.

The timetable requires two buses. Interestingly one appears to run over the afternoon school peak in the afternoon the 15.50 Settle to Horton.

Phone number is 01757 212121 - dial code is Selby
But address is
The Courtyard
Boothferry Road
Goole
East Yorkshire
DN14 6AE

Seem to be https://21cars.co.uk/, so a taxi firm.....

 

[RELL6L]

That's a brilliant innovation, I so hope it finds there is some demand to travel and and from this area.
One vehicle looks like a school journey into Clitheroe which presumably existed anyway - the 510 from Dunsop Bridge and/or the 628 from Slaidburn.
The other vehicle only starts in Settle at 9.07 so presumably does a school run first. But, as noted above, in the afternoon it seems to keep going. Perhaps the 15.50 to Horton in Ribblesdale replaces a school run which exists now.

So that's bus and rail innovations between Clitheroe and Settle this year!

Hopefully I have found a way to link it together with the new Kendal to Appleby route involving trains between Lancaster & Kendal/Oxenholme and between Settle and Appleby... once these start I just need a suitable day and decent weather!

 

[M803UYA]

Phone number is 01757 212121 - dial code is Selby
But address is
The Courtyard
Boothferry Road
Goole
East Yorkshire
DN14 6AE

Seem to be https://21cars.co.uk/, so a taxi firm.....

21 Transport presently operate a canary yellow Ford Transit 16 seater and a triaxle 13 plate Neoplan Tourliner on North Yorkshire Schools contracts. Recently the triaxle broke down just before the February half term on the afternoon run. A triaxle Plaxton Elite appeared the morning after - new on me as they weren't using that last summer( on the 024), just the Neoplan and a Transit. I'm not sure how 'back up' works in that scenario?

A number of other 'Selby' area North Yorkshire schools are moving from Stringers and Sweynes (the latter was a Steve Stockdale run until they packed in) at the start of the summer term on top of these further afield commitments.

If you visit https://northyorkstravel.info/operators/ you can get all school bus timetables for all North Yorks operators. I've lifted the entry from the website and dropped it in below.

The entry for 21 suggests a quadrupling of contracts and work from the summer term - there's now 16 discs on the o licence.

It will be 'very interesting' to see how they staff this new work as no one locally can get/keep drivers.

21 Transport Ltd​

Tel: 01757 212121
Service: School Transport

Services Operated: 018S, 019S, 024S, 079S, 104S, 116R, 261R, 517R, 616H, 620H, 670H, 680H, 743H, 777H

 

[Ken H]

21 Transport presently operate a canary yellow Ford Transit 16 seater and a triaxle 13 plate Neoplan Tourliner on North Yorkshire Schools contracts. Recently the triaxle broke down just before the February half term on the afternoon run. A triaxle Plaxton Elite appeared the morning after - new on me as they weren't using that last summer( on the 024), just the Neoplan and a Transit. I'm not sure how 'back up' works in that scenario?

A number of other 'Selby' area North Yorkshire schools are moving from Stringers and Sweynes (the latter was a Steve Stockdale run until they packed in) at the start of the summer term on top of these further afield commitments.

If you visit https://northyorkstravel.info/operators/ you can get all school bus timetables for all North Yorks operators. I've lifted the entry from the website and dropped it in below.

The entry for 21 suggests a quadrupling of contracts and work from the summer term - there's now 16 discs on the o licence.

It will be 'very interesting' to see how they staff this new work as no one locally can get/keep drivers.

Its also a long way from Selby to Clitheroe. Lots of expensive dead running.
Why don't I get a warm comfy feeling about this?

 

[M803UYA]

Its also a long way from Selby to Clitheroe. Lots of expensive dead running.
Why don't I get a warm comfy feeling about this?

It'll go one of two ways, I guess. All will go swimmingly on day one, and there'll be lots of buses with lots of drivers.

Or there'll be lots of buses parked up somewhere as no one to drive them. Or drivers but no buses.

The really fun part will be sustaining that cash outflow until the first contract payment comes through. That's a lot of money in fuel to spend.

 

[stevieinselby]

Its also a long way from Selby to Clitheroe. Lots of expensive dead running.
Why don't I get a warm comfy feeling about this?

More likely that they will have an outstation in the vicinity. It's mad enough dead-running from Selby to Harrogate or Malton, but Settle/Clitheroe is more than twice as far, at about 70 miles each way – it isn't just the fuel costs that you've got to account for there but drivers' hours as well. (I assume that driving a bus between the depot and the route still counts towards maximum hours?). Likewise the school bus from Hawes to Leyburn, they can't possibly be running that from a depot in Selby.

 

[M803UYA]

More likely that they will have an outstation in the vicinity. It's mad enough dead-running from Selby to Harrogate or Malton, but Settle/Clitheroe is more than twice as far, at about 70 miles each way – it isn't just the fuel costs that you've got to account for there but drivers' hours as well. (I assume that driving a bus between the depot and the route still counts towards maximum hours?). Likewise the school bus from Hawes to Leyburn, they can't possibly be running that from a depot in Selby.

You're correct on the hours.

21 Transport must be setting up some sort of outstation for this new operation. That'll bring it's own challenges - not least staffing an operation remotely.

 

[Ken H]

More likely that they will have an outstation in the vicinity. It's mad enough dead-running from Selby to Harrogate or Malton, but Settle/Clitheroe is more than twice as far, at about 70 miles each way – it isn't just the fuel costs that you've got to account for there but drivers' hours as well. (I assume that driving a bus between the depot and the route still counts towards maximum hours?). Likewise the school bus from Hawes to Leyburn, they can't possibly be running that from a depot in Selby.

Its 44 miles from Hawes to Clitheroe. Everywhere is such a long way from everywhere else up here.

 

[skifans]

I only heard about this recently even as an occasional user of the current 11 and it's great to see. Even if I'm slightly annoyed the first bus or the day to Horton is a 30 minutes later it's a massive improvement.

I do wonder if there will be any changes to card payments and fares. The service is still £1.85 from Settle to Horton cash only at the moment. You also get a free trip every now and then as the ticket machine often seems to be completely missing.

 

[stevieinselby]

Its 44 miles from Hawes to Clitheroe. Everywhere is such a long way from everywhere else up here.

The buses start and end their days at Settle or Slaidburn though, not Clitheroe – it's only 22 miles from Settle to Hawes, which is a much more manageable and viable prospect if they have an outstation around there.

 

[Ken H]

The buses start and end their days at Settle or Slaidburn though, not Clitheroe – it's only 22 miles from Settle to Hawes, which is a much more manageable and viable prospect if they have an outstation around there.

seems to need 2 buses
And the Hawes - Ribblehead road is closed today

 

[Ant158]

This new service 11 started today, noticed no buses tracking on bus times, what vehicles are 21 Transport using?

 

[Ken H]

This new service 11 started today, noticed no buses tracking on bus times, what vehicles are 21 Transport using?

The old 11 didn't track last week when it was NYCC (North Yorkshire County Council) never has.

 

[stevieinselby]

This new service 11 started today, noticed no buses tracking on bus times, what vehicles are 21 Transport using?

On their other routes (Malton and Harrogate) they've been spotted with ex-Diamond Stratas (68 reg), still in Diamond blue, and a dealer white Orion (16 reg) – I haven't seen any reports of what they're running on the 11.

 

[Ken H]

On their other routes (Malton and Harrogate) they've been spotted with ex-Diamond Stratas (68 reg), still in Diamond blue, and a dealer white Orion (16 reg) – I haven't seen any reports of what they're running on the 11.

The Clitheroe - Settle - Horton service 11 isnt tracking
The Harrogate - Knaresborough - Wetherby service 8 seems to have disappeared. Gone from bustimes and the North Yorkshire County Council website. Metro says its Stagecoach but I cant find a timetable on their site. Transport 21 have a registration for this service on Bustimes - https://bustimes.org/registrations/PB2060442/5 - see below for quote

What a mess. Who is more amateurish, NYCC or Transport 21???

8 - Harrogate Bus Station to Wetherby Bus Station via Harrogate, Knaresborough, Wetherby​

Registration numberPB2060442/5TypeNormal Stopping
Hail & RideSupported by subsidy?Yes, Nodrth Yorkshire CoucilAuthoritiesNorth Yorkshire County Council
West Yorkshire pte

Variation history​

1. • Received26 Feb 24
   • Effective8 Apr 24
   • End12 Apr 26
   • Registered
   • Monday to Saturday
   From: Harrogate Bus Station
   To: Wetherby Bus Station
   Via: Harrogate, Knaresborough, Wetherby
   Name or No.: 8
   Service type: Normal Stopping / Hail & Ride
   Effective date: 08 April 2024
   End date: 12 April 2026
   Other details: Monday to Saturday

Attached is the West Yorkshire Metro timetable for the Harrogate - Kanersborough- Wetherby 8

 

[railrambler]

The Clitheroe - Settle - Horton service 11 isnt tracking
The Harrogate - Knaresborough - Wetherby service 8 seems to have disappeared. Gone from bustimes and the North Yorkshire County Council website. Metro says its Stagecoach but I cant find a timetable on their site. Transport 21 have a registration for this service on Bustimes - https://bustimes.org/registrations/PB2060442/5 - see below for quote

What a mess. Who is more amateurish, NYCC or Transport 21???



Attached is the West Yorkshire Metro timetable for the Harrogate - Kanersborough- Wetherby 8

Well, after four months there's an update! Apparently 21 Transport have pulled the plug / jumped ship or whatever and the contract is now in-house with both Lancashire County Council and North Yorkshire County Council running the service with their own buses, but retaining what were “21 Transport” drivers. Got the info yesterday first hand from the driver of the 1420 departure from Clitheroe. I sure hope this service continues as the beer at the Inn at Whitewell is spot on!

 

[Leedsbusman]

Well, after four months there's an update! Apparently 21 Transport have pulled the plug / jumped ship or whatever and the contract is now in-house with both Lancashire County Council and North Yorkshire County Council running the service with their own buses, but retaining what were “21 Transport” drivers. Got the info yesterday first hand from the driver of the 1420 departure from Clitheroe. I sure hope this service continues as the beer at the Inn at Whitewell is spot on!

It looked to still be 21 Transport on Saturday. North Yorkshire’s in house fleet are taking over on 2nd September. I don’t believe Lancashire will be operating it.

 

[Ken H]

Didn't anyone do due dilligence on 21 transport?

 

[Leedsbusman]

Didn't anyone do due dilligence on 21 transport?

In what way?

 

[stevieinselby]

Didn't anyone do due dilligence on 21 transport?

What would "due diligence" have turned up? North Yorkshire Council aren't revoking their contracts, they will still be running the 8 and 190 contracts as well as some/most/all school contracts they had – it sounds like they have found that having an outstation and service buses in Settle, a looong way from their main depot near Selby, is not viable plan. Either that or they underbid for the contract and aren't making enough money – or possibly Lancashire County Council have changed their school service arrangements (given that the journeys to/from Clitheroe schools are not part of the new timetable) and this has rendered the service unprofitable.
The bus I was on on Saturday morning (1020 from Clitheroe to Horton) was well-used, although that was more noticeable with it being their Sprinter rather than one of the Stratas, and it seemed like there were a lot of regular passengers as well as a few of us "visitors".

 

[Leedsbusman]

What would "due diligence" have turned up? NYC* aren't revoking their contracts, they will still be running the 8 and 190 contracts as well as some/most/all school contracts they had – it sounds like they have found that having an outstation and service buses in Settle, a looong way from their main depot near Selby, is not viable plan. Either that or they underbid for the contract and aren't making enough money – or possibly LCC* have changed their school service arrangements (given that the journeys to/from Clitheroe schools are not part of the new timetable) and this has rendered the service unprofitable.
The bus I was on on Saturday morning (1020 from Clitheroe to Horton) was well-used, although that was more noticeable with it being their Sprinter rather than one of the Stratas, and it seemed like there were a lot of regular passengers as well as a few of us "visitors".

Mod note: acronyms need to be defined

The timetable on the North Yorkshire website still shows the schools journeys. https://northyorkstravel.info/timetable/11sep24.pdf

 

[stevieinselby]

The timetable on the North Yorkshire website still shows the schools journeys. https://northyorkstravel.info/timetable/11sep24.pdf

Hmm, intriguing, so it does! I have seen a timetable that had those journeys missing, but I can't find anything now that has them omitted, so maybe it was a mistake that has been corrected – good news either way that those journeys are being kept.

 

[randyrippley]

When Lancs County Council tried this twenty years ago it was with their own, new minibuses complete with bike racks on the back. Didn't last long, within two years they were transferred elsewhere - two went to Carnforth for the Silverdale link, not sure where the others went. But they were replaced in Bowland by old clapped out tendered vehicles which seemed to change with astounding frequency. I can see this going the same way.

 

[Ken H]

In what way?

Checking the company has the resources and expertise to run a stage carriage service.
Who thought running a servce that far west from Selby was viable?

TBH. I think a Wigglesworth - Horton shuttle is all thats needed. The rest is just fields.

A bus based in Skipton could do an early Skipton - Settle service. The first bus from Skipton gets to settle around 0930

 

[Mollman]

It looked to still be 21 Transport on Saturday. North Yorkshire’s in house fleet are taking over on 2nd September. I don’t believe Lancashire will be operating it.

Correct, it will be run by North Yorkshire in house fleet only. They are the contract holder with Lancs just contributing to the cost of running cross boundary.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Checking the company has the resources and expertise to run a stage carriage service.
Who thought running a servce that far west from Selby was viable?

TBH. I think a Wigglesworth - Horton shuttle is all thats needed. The rest is just fields.

A bus based in Skipton could do an early Skipton - Settle service. The first bus from Skipton gets to settle around 0930

How do you know they don’t have the resources or expertise? There appears to be no public suggestion that they have failed to operate to their contract terms and indeed appear to be continuing to do so.

 

[stevieinselby]

Checking the company has the resources and expertise to run a stage carriage service.
Who thought running a servce that far west from Selby was viable?

TBH. I think a Wigglesworth - Horton shuttle is all thats needed. The rest is just fields.

A bus based in Skipton could do an early Skipton - Settle service. The first bus from Skipton gets to settle around 0930

They have an outstation in Settle, the bus doesn't run up and back from Selby every day.
Having used the service the other day, there were at least half a dozen on board from Clitheroe, the next busiest stop was the caravan park near Tosside, and we had well over a dozen on board by the time we reached Wigglesworth.