TPE train cancelled, reroute to travel onward with TPE?

[trover]

I’ve tickets for 0828 TP train from Lancaster (LAN) to Man Picc (MAN), and 0942 NT train from Man Picc to Sheffield (SHF). The 0828 will be cancelled, TP advised to use the 0847 NT from LAN to MAN (probably because the subsequent TP train is also cancelled) and next available NT from MAN to SHF scheduled to arrive at 1205 (66 mins late compared to original arrival). When asking if I’ll be able to use the 1018 TP from MAN to SHF (which brings the delay down to less than 10 mins), they replied with the same old “ask conductor but no guarantee”.

As Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO) stated we’ve the right to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity when delay is estimated to be greater than 60 mins, if the conductor of the 1018 TP say no, can I buy a single ticket and obtain refund from TP? Thanks in advance.

 

[Watershed]

I’ve tickets for 0828 TP train from Lancaster (LAN) to Man Picc (MAN), and 0942 NT train from Man Picc to Sheffield (SHF). The 0828 will be cancelled, TP advised to use the 0847 NT from LAN to MAN (probably because the subsequent TP train is also cancelled) and next available NT from MAN to SHF scheduled to arrive at 1205 (66 mins late compared to original arrival). When asking if I’ll be able to use the 1018 TP from MAN to SHF (which brings the delay down to less than 10 mins), they replied with the same old “ask conductor but no guarantee”.

As Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO) stated we’ve the right to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity when delay is estimated to be greater than 60 mins, if the conductor of the 1018 TP say no, can I buy a single ticket and obtain refund from TP? Thanks in advance.

Yes, in short. They need to reroute you at the earliest opportunity, which means that TOC restrictions go out of the window.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presume your ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield is/was a Northern advance.

Can't imagine that a TPE train manager would refuse you from boarding one of their trains if your overall journey has been delayed due to one of their trains being cancelled.

However, it might be easier if you can you get the Lancaster ticket office to endorse your ticket when you start your journey (for when you get to Manchester).

 

[Fokx]

The conductor of the 1018 won’t have an issue with it at all, you’ll find him in the middle cab if you did want to ask

 

[trover]

Yes, in short. They need to reroute you at the earliest opportunity, which means that TOC restrictions go out of the window.

Thank you @Watershed

Presume your ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield is/was a Northern advance.

Can't imagine that a TPE train manager would refuse you from boarding one of their trains if your overall journey has been delayed due to one of their trains being cancelled.

However, it might be easier if you can you get the Lancaster ticket office to endorse your ticket when you start your journey (for when you get to Manchester).

I’ve thought of it but end up didn’t try at all It’s more than likely they would say it’s another company’s matter, conductors are better to deal with in such scenarios than ticket offices from my experiences (apart from a few exceptionally good ticket offices).

The conductor of the 1018 won’t have an issue with it at all, you’ll find him in the middle cab if you did want to ask

I see it’s 2 185 coupled together, do you mean in the front cab of the second unit? Struggled to find the conductor last time

 

[trover]

The woman in the cab said no

 

[Fokx]

I see it’s 2 185 coupled together, do you mean in the front cab of the second unit? Struggled to find the conductor last time

You’re probably already on said train but yes they’ll be found around carriages ABC (Manchester end) from Manchester.

Most will be found in the 3rd cab (front of rear set) but some will work it from the extreme rear caband head to the middle of the train mid-journey

The woman in the cab said no

Apologies, Ignore my earlier advice as there’s been a train crew swap!

The Manchester crew have been swapped with a Cleethopres crew

 

[Watershed]

The woman in the cab said no

Wonderful. Well I think your original approach is what you're going to have to do.

 

[trover]

You’re probably already on said train but yes they’ll be found around carriages ABC (Manchester end) from Manchester.

Most will be found in the 3rd cab (front of rear set) but some will work it from the extreme rear caband head to the middle of the train mid-journey


It appears that there’s two conductors on that service, I’d cheekily ask the male who’s more lenient

The male conductor say no as well

 

[Fokx]

Your best option now will be to claim delay repay sadly

 

[trover]

Wonderful. Well I think your original approach is what you're going to have to do.

Ticket bought a hefty 10 pounds ticket

I’m going to write an email to TPE to request a refund, how do I quote the PRO? Do I write “Article 16(b) of the Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations Regulation” or “Article 16(b) of EU Regulation 1371/2007” or both or anything else?

 

[ainsworth74]

I’m going to write an email to TPE to request a refund, how do I quote the PRO? Do I write “Article 16(b) of the Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations Regulation” or “Article 16(b) of EU Regulation 1371/2007” or both or anything else?

You don't need to I think. You've been delayed by more than an hour and so on an Advance Single you're entitled to compensation to the value of 100% of the ticket. So I'd claim Delay Repay to get my money back as swiftly as possible. Ironically I wouldn't be at all surprised if the system refused the claim in the first instance on the basis that you could have caught the 1018 so you'll then need to appeal and get it paid once a human looks at it. But I suspect this will still be swifter than engaging customer services in a discussion around the PRO and asking for a refund.

I would then separately to the Delay Repay claim, however, raise a complaint to TPE that they are in breach of the obligations under PRO. Especially as the next available train was one of their own and you were only delayed in the first place by them cancelling their own train! I would invite them to apologise for the unnecessary disruption to your journey contrary to their legal obligations.

 

[trover]

You don't need to I think. You've been delayed by more than an hour and so on an Advance Single you're entitled to compensation to the value of 100% of the ticket. So I'd claim Delay Repay to get my money back as swiftly as possible. Ironically I wouldn't be at all surprised if the system refused the claim in the first instance on the basis that you could have caught the 1018 so you'll then need to appeal and get it paid once a human looks at it. But I suspect this will still be swifter than engaging customer services in a discussion around the PRO and asking for a refund.

I would then separately to the Delay Repay claim, however, raise a complaint to TPE that they are in breach of the obligations under PRO. Especially as the next available train was one of their own and you were only delayed in the first place by them cancelling their own train! I would invite them to apologise for the unnecessary disruption to your journey contrary to their legal obligations.

I wasn’t actually eligible for delay repay, as the 1018 TPE arrived at Sheffield less than 15 mins late comparing to the 0942 NT, and the 1018 itself was about on time.

The amount I’m looking for is the cost of the additional ticket I had to buy for using the 1018.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wasn’t actually eligible for delay repay, as the 1018 TPE arrived at Sheffield less than 15 mins late comparing to the 0942 NT, and the 1018 itself was about on time.

The amount I’m looking for is the cost of the additional ticket I had to buy for using the 1018.

Apologies I'm with you now.

 

[trover]

TP refused to refund the extra ticket I had to purchase:

I am afraid we would not be able to refund the additionally purchased ticket. As the UK left the EU back in 2020 regulations such as that one you mentioned would not apply and under the National Rail Terms and conditions of travel you would have been able to travel on the next Northern Service then claim Delay Repay from ourselves for the entire journey. Unfortunately the Northern only Advance would not have been valid on that TPE service.

I appreciate this may not be the outcome you were hoping for but those are the rules set out under the terms and conditions of travel for the tickets.

Are they making up the rules, as the PRO has been retained in the UK law after brexit?

 

[Watershed]

TP refused to refund the extra ticket I had to purchase:

Are they making up the rules, as the PRO has been retained in the UK law after brexit?

Clearly whoever wrote that response hasn't bothered to look into your complaint in any depth, and has just gone with the first excuse that came to mind to say the complaint has been "resolved".

The PRO were automatically retained in UK law post-Brexit by virtue of section 2 (as amended) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. They were modified by the Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018, but not in any way that is material to your situation.

Furthermore, compliance with the PRO is a condition of every TOC's Statement of National Regulatory Provisions (SNRP) - see the ORR's notification of the implementation of this change to SNRP holders back in 2019. Condition 3 of TPE's SNRP refers:

The SNRP holder shall comply with articles 4-10, 15-18 and 28-29 of the PRO Regulation.

It is an offence, under regulations 5 and 9 of the Railway (Licensing of Railway Undertakings) Regulations 2005 to operate trains without holding a passenger licence or SNRP. These licences and SNRPs are subject to various conditions; breach of these conditions theoretically means that the TOC is operating otherwise than in accordance with their SNRP and thus without one.

The ORR is entitled to make an order under section 55 of the Railways Act 1993, if it is satisfied that an operator is in contravention of one of their conditions or requirements (e.g. the terms of their SNRP). Now, realistically speaking, is the ORR going to do anything about a case like this (which will no doubt be dismissed as "isolated")... No.

But it does go to show that this is a serious matter of regulatory compliance which could, in extremis, mean that TPE were forced to stop operating. "Brexit innit" is, accordingly, absolutely not the kind of blithe, uninformed response you would expect to see.

 

[hkstudent]

Clearly whoever wrote that response hasn't bothered to look into your complaint in any depth, and has just gone with the first excuse that came to mind to say the complaint has been "resolved".

The PRO were automatically retained in UK law post-Brexit by virtue of section 2 (as amended) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. They were modified by the Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018, but not in any way that is material to your situation.

Furthermore, compliance with the PRO is a condition of every TOC's Statement of National Regulatory Provisions (SNRP) - see the ORR's notification of the implementation of this change to SNRP holders back in 2019. Condition 3 of TPE's SNRP refers:


It is an offence, under regulations 5 and 9 of the Railway (Licensing of Railway Undertakings) Regulations 2005 to operate trains without holding a passenger licence or SNRP. These licences and SNRPs are subject to various conditions; breach of these conditions theoretically means that the TOC is operating otherwise than in accordance with their SNRP and thus without one.

The ORR is entitled to make an order under section 55 of the Railways Act 1993, if it is satisfied that an operator is in contravention of one of their conditions or requirements (e.g. the terms of their SNRP). Now, realistically speaking, is the ORR going to do anything about a case like this (which will no doubt be dismissed as "isolated")... No.

But it does go to show that this is a serious matter of regulatory compliance which could, in extremis, mean that TPE were forced to stop operating. "Brexit innit" is, accordingly, absolutely not the kind of blithe, uninformed response you would expect to see.

I am thinking what is the level of escalation of OP's case is going to be. Given that Customer Service won't be legally trained to handle regulation/legal related disputes.

 

[trover]

Clearly whoever wrote that response hasn't bothered to look into your complaint in any depth, and has just gone with the first excuse that came to mind to say the complaint has been "resolved".

The random excuse generator is fully functioning

The PRO were automatically retained in UK law post-Brexit by virtue of section 2 (as amended) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. They were modified by the Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018, but not in any way that is material to your situation.

Furthermore, compliance with the PRO is a condition of every TOC's Statement of National Regulatory Provisions (SNRP) - see the ORR's notification of the implementation of this change to SNRP holders back in 2019. Condition 3 of TPE's SNRP refers:

It is an offence, under regulations 5 and 9 of the Railway (Licensing of Railway Undertakings) Regulations 2005 to operate trains without holding a passenger licence or SNRP. These licences and SNRPs are subject to various conditions; breach of these conditions theoretically means that the TOC is operating otherwise than in accordance with their SNRP and thus without one.

Thanks so much for enriching the thread (as well as my knowledge) - this not only unveil their denial of the existence of laws and regulations, but also the fact that the customer service is digging their own grave for their company by admitting the breach of conditions which their license is subject to. Unbelievable!

The ORR is entitled to make an order under section 55 of the Railways Act 1993, if it is satisfied that an operator is in contravention of one of their conditions or requirements (e.g. the terms of their SNRP). Now, realistically speaking, is the ORR going to do anything about a case like this (which will no doubt be dismissed as "isolated")... No.

But it does go to show that this is a serious matter of regulatory compliance which could, in extremis, mean that TPE were forced to stop operating. "Brexit innit" is, accordingly, absolutely not the kind of blithe, uninformed response you would expect to see.

If that’s implemented seriously I wonder any TOCs on this island would survive However, we all know the answer…

I am thinking what is the level of escalation of OP's case is going to be. Given that Customer Service won't be legally trained to handle regulation/legal related disputes.

The next step will still be with the customer relations of TP, hope they’ll be more sense making and escalate it to somebody who’s capable of handling complaints of this level.

To show the whole picture and for anyone reading this post in the future, this is the complaint letter I sent to TP:

Dear Sir / Madam,

I am writing to raise a formal complaint regarding the issues I faced on the journey I made today from Lancaster to Sheffield. I planned to use following trains:
0828 Lancaster to Manchester Piccadilly
0942 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield

I held the following tickets:
TPE Advance single from Lancaster to Manchester Piccadilly &
Northern Advance single from Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield

Unfortunately, your service from Lancaster to Manchester Piccadilly was cancelled. I therefore caught the following Northern service and arrived at Manchester Piccadilly at 09:57, thus missing my connection.

As I held a Northern only Advance for this portion of my journey, by default I would have had to wait for the next available Northern service at 10:49. Taking this service would have resulted in my arrival at Sheffield being delayed by more than 60 minutes. Accordingly, under Article 16(b) of EU Regulation 1371/2007 (Regulation on Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations), I was entitled to be re-routed to my destination at the earliest opportunity.

As there was a TPE service to Sheffield due at 10:18, which was the next available service to Sheffield, I asked the conductor onboard the 10:18 to be allowed to travel on their service. However, the conductor refused to allow me to travel on the 10:18 with my Northern only Advance. Therefore, I had no choice but to purchase a new ticket, a TPE only Advance costing £10.45, to travel on the 10:18 service.

By travelling on the next available service, I have avoided TPE being liable for any Delay Repay (as the delay has thereby been reduced to less than 15 minutes). Had I simply waited for the 10:49 Northern service, TPE would have been liable to pay me Delay Repay. Therefore the conductor not only acted in breach of the Regulation, but put TPE at risk of greater Delay Repay liability. I find this an astonishing and frankly unacceptable attitude, particularly given that I had already been inconvenienced by the cancellation.

In resolution of this complaint, I am therefore looking to receive an apology, a refund of the additional ticket I was forced to buy, as well as an assurance that the conductor on the 10:18 service, as well as all other members of staff who I might encounter on future journeys, will be suitably retrained and rebriefed on the right to re-routing which passengers have in circumstances such as mine.

Yours faithfully,
trover

 

[trover]

For anyone reading this post in the future, TP has agreed to reimburse the cost of the additional ticket I had to purchase after around 3 email communications. Thank you all for the contribution

 

[LOL The Irony]

For anyone reading this post in the future, TP has agreed to reimburse the cost of the additional ticket I had to purchase after around 3 email communications. Thank you all for the contribution

Good, as they should.