Train companies and bus operators should work together to allow connections to be made

[anthony263]

Moderator note: Split from

South Wales 'Metro'

Exactly that! So as an example, a 30 min service could be achieved without a passing loop, with the southbound service slotting into the appropriate path at Aberdare left vacant by the next northbound service.

www.railforums.co.uk

Tfw might want to work with bus operators to see about timing buses to properly meet trains. An example being the 321 talbot green to Llantwit major which arrives at lantwit the time the train is departing.

 

[SargeNpton]

Does TfW specify the bus service for route 321, or is it down to the bus operator? If the latter then they will be more concerned about setting a timetable that meets the needs of the passengers rather than those with onward connections.

 

[_toommm_]

One example of this is in Holmfirth with First, where you can buy Bus&Rail singles returns on First Buses, with journeys connecting onto TPE at Huddersfield to Manchester, Dewsbury and Leeds.

I don’t think many people know about it though as it’s buried fairly deep in the WYMetro website, which is a shame as it’s not too badly priced.

 

[Mollman]

Some have, the issue comes when the rail timetable changes and the bus fits in with other services elsewhere. The changes to the Cornish Mainline timetable in December 2019 played havoc with a number of services which were designed to connect with trains at places such as Bodmin Parkway and St Austell

 

[Llandudno]

Moderator note: Split from

South Wales 'Metro'

Exactly that! So as an example, a 30 min service could be achieved without a passing loop, with the southbound service slotting into the appropriate path at Aberdare left vacant by the next northbound service.

www.railforums.co.uk

Tfw might want to work with bus operators to see about timing buses to properly meet trains. An example being the 321 talbot green to Llantwit major which arrives at lantwit the time the train is departing.

In other parts of Wales where TfW specify bus timetables and routes, there is no attempt to coordinate bus and rail connections or offer through/joint ticketing, so I wouldn’t hold out much hope in commercial bus operators in the Valleys being persuaded to connect with Metro trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In other parts of Wales where TfW specify bus timetables and routes, there is no attempt to coordinate bus and rail connections or offer through/joint ticketing, so I wouldn’t hold out much hope in commercial bus operators in the Valleys being persuaded to connect with Metro trains.

They, inexplicably, deliberately decided not to set up Traws in that way. The mind totally boggles.

 

[Llandudno]

They, inexplicably, deliberately decided not to set up Traws in that way. The mind totally boggles.

The Politicians should really be held accountable as this a profligate waste of taxpayers money, it is ridiculous that the subsidised Traws network operates totally independently from the rail network, and on some routes actually competes with the railway rather than compliments it.

People complain about poor North-South Wales connectivity, especially as trains have to run via England to get from North to South but better rail/Traws integration would help in certain parts of Mid and West Wales to reach Cardiff and Swansea.

It’s usually quicker to drive via England too from parts of North Wales to Cardiff as well!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Politicians should really be held accountable as this a profligate waste of taxpayers money, it is ridiculous that the subsidised Traws network operates totally independently from the rail network, and on some routes actually competes with the railway rather than compliments it.

TBH it would to me make sense for a Welsh "Verkehrsverbund" to be set up, and for that to have a single probably zonal ticketing system applying to both modes, at least tendered bus services but there could be incentives for commercial bus operators to buy into it as well. No reason through tickets from outside Wales couldn't still be issued on the existing RSP systems, but to a public transport zone instead of a railway station. Then coordinate the lot properly.

Ask the Swiss - they do rural Verbundtarif systems. OK, Switzerland is just a little richer than Wales, but logistically there are many considerable similarities.

To be fair, not much of Traws actually does compete with the railway other than incidentally, but it would be good if it was made to wholly complement by way of having the same fares for both. And it could be integrated better, for one example in Bangor where there'll be considerable demand for travel to Caernarfon have the buses in both directions actually come into the railway station and put them in the railway timetable - the quirky layout with a "missing platform" would provide a "bus platform" quite well rather than having to walk up the road and find the stop! Clearly you wouldn't want to only serve the railway station as it's inconveniently located for town, but no reason not to properly serve both the railway and bus stations.

https://www.trawscymru.info/routes/

(Traws route map)

 

[Llandudno]

TBH it would to me make sense for a Welsh "Verkehrsverbund" to be set up, and for that to have a single probably zonal ticketing system applying to both modes, at least tendered bus services but there could be incentives for commercial bus operators to buy into it as well. No reason through tickets from outside Wales couldn't still be issued on the existing RSP systems, but to a public transport zone instead of a railway station. Then coordinate the lot properly.

Ask the Swiss - they do rural Verbundtarif systems. OK, Switzerland is just a little richer than Wales, but logistically there are many considerable similarities.

To be fair, not much of Traws actually does compete with the railway other than incidentally, but it would be good if it was made to wholly complement by way of having the same fares for both. And it could be integrated better, for one example in Bangor where there'll be considerable demand for travel to Caernarfon have the buses in both directions actually come into the railway station and put them in the railway timetable - the quirky layout with a "missing platform" would provide a "bus platform" quite well rather than having to walk up the road and find the stop! Clearly you wouldn't want to only serve the railway station as it's inconveniently located for town, but no reason not to properly serve both the railway and bus stations.

https://www.trawscymru.info/routes/

(Traws route map)

Agreed, I don’t think it would be too difficult to set up a simple zonal fares system for through tickets or even a day rover ticket, there is, of course, a day rover ticket which is a bit complicated but few know about its existence or validity least of all bus and train operating staff...!

Best piece of non ordination:

pre lockdown:

Llandudno dep. 1014 Train
Bleanau Ffestiniog arr. 1130

Bleanau Ffestiniog dep. 1130 38 bus
Dolgellau arr. 1225 for Barmouth etc.

Zero minutes connection at Bleanau Ffestiniog, next bus four hours later!

Rail timetable and subsidised bus timetables set by TfW!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Llandudno dep. 1014 Train
Bleanau Ffestiniog arr. 1130

Bleanau Ffestiniog dep. 1130 38 bus
Dolgellau arr. 1225 for Barmouth etc.

Zero minutes connection at Bleanau Ffestiniog, next bus four hours later!

Rail timetable and subsidised bus timetables set by TfW!

I reckon in practice that bus would wait for the train. But I totally agree that this should be formalised properly (and time it 5 minutes later, as a journey planner won't offer that connection even if it mostly works[1]). In busy urban areas with high frequencies it really doesn't matter. In rural areas with low frequencies, it's more important to ensure things connect.

[1] There is still the issue at Preston of an Ormskirk train running through to Blackpool South but it not being in the public timetable to do so, which means journey planners tell you there's a 61 minute wait, when in fact it's an unadvertised through train so the 1 minute "connection" cannot be missed. If this sort of stupidity still goes on, what hope cross-modal integration?

 

[Mag_seven]

Train companies and bus operators should work together to allow connections to be made

Of course they should - its called "integrated transport". We seem to have developed a mindset in this country that the purpose of bus services is to compete with rail over the same route rather than connect with rail services and the bus continuing over other routes not served by rail.

 

[MotCO]

I think one of the problems is that a bus may be timed to connect with a train going in one direction, but will not be suitable for a train going the other way. Likewise, once the bus has completed its journey, it will wait 10 - 15 minutes before turning round, which may then not link in with the trains ariving at the station.

Further, if there are two stations on a bus route, the timings may be ideal for one station, but not for the other.

Whilst integrated transport is a noble aim, I don't think it will ever be achieved unless you have very frequent bus services or autonomous buses.

 

[Llandudno]

I reckon in practice that bus would wait for the train. But I totally agree that this should be formalised properly (and time it 5 minutes later, as a journey planner won't offer that connection even if it mostly works[1]). In busy urban areas with high frequencies it really doesn't matter. In rural areas with low frequencies, it's more important to ensure things connect.

[1] There is still the issue at Preston of an Ormskirk train running through to Blackpool South but it not being in the public timetable to do so, which means journey planners tell you there's a 61 minute wait, when in fact it's an unadvertised through train so the 1 minute "connection" cannot be missed. If this sort of stupidity still goes on, what hope cross-modal integration?

In reality there is no point in the 38 bus waiting for the train to arrive at Blaenau as no-one in their right mind is going to risk a zero minutes none advertised connection from train to bus, especially when there is a four hour wait for the next bus!

 

[Harpers Tate]

At the moment, if the "rules" surrounding stage carriage buses are the same in Wales as in Egland (which I neither confirm nor deny) then the operator can be penalised for persistent late running. So, train late. Bus waits for connection. Bus Operator gets their Operators' Licence suspended for unreliability. Without timetabling the bus such that it reliably meets (late) trains, which introduces an unwanted delay if the train is on time, it can't "legally" happen - in England - with the present state of the rules. And you only have to attempt such a connection and fail for this reason, and most folk wouldn't try it again.

 

[Llandudno]

At the moment, if the "rules" surrounding stage carriage buses are the same in Wales as in Egland (which I neither confirm nor deny) then the operator can be penalised for persistent late running. So, train late. Bus waits for connection. Bus Operator gets their Operators' Licence suspended for unreliability. Without timetabling the bus such that it reliably meets (late) trains, which introduces an unwanted delay if the train is on time, it can't "legally" happen - in England - with the present state of the rules. And you only have to attempt such a connection and fail for this reason, and most folk wouldn't try it again.

The strange thing is until a couple of years ago the 38 bus left Blaenau at 1200, 30 minutes after the train was due in, which was great as I was able to grab a quick cup of coffee before catching it!

So goodness why the bus was brought forward half an hour, probably to stop me using it!

 

[PeterC]

At the moment, if the "rules" surrounding stage carriage buses are the same in Wales as in Egland (which I neither confirm nor deny) then the operator can be penalised for persistent late running. So, train late. Bus waits for connection. Bus Operator gets their Operators' Licence suspended for unreliability. Without timetabling the bus such that it reliably meets (late) trains, which introduces an unwanted delay if the train is on time, it can't "legally" happen - in England - with the present state of the rules. And you only have to attempt such a connection and fail for this reason, and most folk wouldn't try it again.

Presumably stating in the timetable that a connection will be held doesn't help?

 

[Harpers Tate]

@PeterC AFAIK there is no such provision in the "rules". I do stand to be corrected, but I believe not.

 

[stuu]

I think one of the problems is that a bus may be timed to connect with a train going in one direction, but will not be suitable for a train going the other way. Likewise, once the bus has completed its journey, it will wait 10 - 15 minutes before turning round, which may then not link in with the trains ariving at the station.

That does seem to happen in a lot of commonly quoted examples, however in situations where you have say an hourly bus meeting an hourly train service, arranging the bus time to allow connections towards the major local centre in the morning, and away in the afternoon should be reasonably doable

 

[PeterC]

That does seem to happen in a lot of commonly quoted examples, however in situations where you have say an hourly bus meeting an hourly train service, arranging the bus time to allow connections towards the major local centre in the morning, and away in the afternoon should be reasonably doable

If the route serves only one station with a major flow in one direction that that should be doable. You will need some generous connection times to allow for late running and you will probably not be able to maintain a consistent clockface timetable all day.

If you have a sizeable constituency wanting a connection from the train in the other direction as well then things start to fall apart. Start allowing for other traffic flows such as schools or other stations on the route and something will have to give.

 

[biko]

If the route serves only one station with a major flow in one direction that that should be doable. You will need some generous connection times to allow for late running and you will probably not be able to maintain a consistent clockface timetable all day.

If you have a sizeable constituency wanting a connection from the train in the other direction as well then things start to fall apart. Start allowing for other traffic flows such as schools or other stations on the route and something will have to give.

If frequencies are half-hourly or better, then waiting times from/to the second direction should not be too long, but frequencies are of course not always so good in Wales. In many cases, train arrival times will not be very different from each other by coincidence, but in all other cases, the solution would then be to have similar arrival times from both directions in towns where this happens. But that would mean changing the train times based on the bus timetable and is therefore very complicated.