Train delayed to enable customer connections

[JD2168]

I was in Doncaster this afternoon & an announcement came that the 4:21pm to Sheffield from Scarborough run by Northern was delayed due to the train departing late to enable customer connections.

This is one I haven’t heard of before, has anyone else?

 

[Deepgreen]

I was in Doncaster this afternoon & an announcement came that the 4:21pm to Sheffield from Scarborough run by Northern was delayed due to the train departing late to enable customer connections.

This is one I haven’t heard of before, has anyone else?

Certainly a rarity these days if not the last train of the day. In fact, it's against the principles laid down in privatisation, i.e. that punctuality at almost all costs is king and customer service is less so! As a result, unless explicity advertised (and even then sometimes not), connections are a part of history.

 

[Geeves]

Certainly a rarity these days if not the last train of the day. In fact, it's against the principles laid down in privatisation, i.e. that punctuality at almost all costs is king and customer service is less so! As a result, unless explicity advertised (and even then sometimes not), connections are a part of history.

As you say it doesn't happen often but Northern have a lot of complicated crew diagrams and it may well be in the customers favour that train has to wait purely because if it doesn't the train cannot come back! There's also a lot of unit swaps going on and control (TPE too) will ring and tell you to hold it, an entire trains worth of unhappy passengers will these days make the news with social media.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What exactly was running late, such that the 1621 Northern service to Sheffield needed to be held at some intermediate point on its way from Scarborough, not necessarily Doncaster? The three car Northern unit seems to have accumulated delays as early into its journey as Bridlington and, almost two hours later, still looks to have been over ten minutes late on its approach into Doncaster.

Realtime Trains | 1J49 1402 Scarborough to Sheffield | 22/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1J49 1402 departure from Scarborough to Sheffield on 22/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[vicbury]

I was mulling this over last night as I saw GWR were holding a Portsmouth Harbour at Westbury for the same reason.

I've been repeatedly frustrated at TfW for not holding a Cheltenham Spa service for a single minute at Severn Tunnel Junction to avoid a 59 minute delay for everyone changing. However, even a few minutes of delay to one service can lead to other changes not being made elsewhere.

So all in all, I'd rather everything just ran on time. Not too much to ask right

 

[Thepinkpig73]

I've seen Scotrail do this a fair bit in the north of Scotland, particularly Inverness.

 

[The exile]

So all in all, I'd rather everything just ran on time. Not too much to ask right

It is when everyone bit of slack in timetables leads to demands for reductions in journey times.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I’ve had Northern help out by holding a Lancaster to Leeds service by around 10 minutes at Carnforth to wait for a late running service from Barrow to arrive. Had the connection not been held, then passengers would have been looking at a 2+ hour delay.

 

[trainophile]

Happened to me at Taunton last Saturday, the 13:18 GWR to Cardiff was held for 14 minutes, waiting for a delayed XC from Plymouth, which we were told had passengers on who needed to connect for destinations that weren’t going to be served by other trains without long delays

We were kept informed, and thanks to the built in dwell at Bristol arrived in Cardiff only 7 late.

I wonder if the possibility of going over the 15 minutes delay repay threshold affects these decisions.

 

[saismee]

Seen this at Ipswich before. the 0819 Harwich International to Cambridge was held for 5 minutes to allow the late running (due to a late running Norwich to London Liverpool Street service) Felixstowe to Ipswich service to arrive (0819, 5 late) and allow everyone to make their connection. Brilliant communication, the guard on the service from Felixstowe even announced the held train as it arrived into Ipswich, so people knew the connection wasn't missed!

 

[Krokodil]

Conwy Valley services are fairly frequently get held for late-running trains. 1W92 and 1W95 are frequent offenders. Llandudno shuttles are often held but the journey is so short that you won't see this message appear.

 

[Bald Rick]

Happens very frequently, but not often ‘advertised‘ as such, as the delay is usually described back to the original incident. Rumour has it that @yorkie was delayed for the same reason yesterday.…

 

[Falcon1200]

I wonder if the possibility of going over the 15 minutes delay repay threshold affects these decisions.

In my experience, Control decisions on holding connections were never driven by potential cost implications, whether to train operator or infrastructure owner. The factors would be, among others, time till next connection, or if there even was one, number of passengers, effect on other services, effect on engineering work.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Looking back to @Mcr Warrior ’s post #4 I’m still far from clear how the original delays from the Bridlington area had anything to do with anyone’s ‘connection’.

 

[RPI]

Quite often Newquay services may be held at Par if there are loads of passengers on a down London, mainly because the service is 2 hourly at best (currently) with most trains having ten minutes or more turnaround at Newquay.

 

[kkong]

Happens regularly in certain parts of Scotland.

e.g. this morning:

08:23 Aberdeen to Inverness due 10:35
08:23 Aberdeen to Inverness due 10:35 has been delayed at Aberdeen and is now 4 minutes late.
This is due to the train departing late to maintain customer connections.
Last Updated: 23/05/2025 09:04

 

[Lewisham2221]

What exactly was running late, such that the 1621 Northern service to Sheffield needed to be held at some intermediate point on its way from Scarborough, not necessarily Doncaster? The three car Northern unit seems to have accumulated delays as early into its journey as Bridlington and, almost two hours later, still looks to have been over ten minutes late on its approach into Doncaster.

Realtime Trains | 1J49 1402 Scarborough to Sheffield | 22/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1J49 1402 departure from Scarborough to Sheffield on 22/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Looking back to @Mcr Warrior ’s post #4 I’m still far from clear how the original delays from the Bridlington area had anything to do with anyone’s ‘connection’.

I see that the train from York arrived at Bridlington at the same time as the Sheffield time eventually departed. I wonder if someone had somehow boarded the wrong train and the train was held to allow them to head back in the right direction ASAP and avoid potentially becoming stranded?

Happens very frequently, but not often ‘advertised‘ as such, as the delay is usually described back to the original incident. Rumour has it that @yorkie was delayed for the same reason yesterday.…

Agreed - trains get held for connections far more than these forums would have you believe, although it is obviously location dependent. "Delayed due to the train departing late to enable customer connections" is something I often see internally, but rarely see/hear it publicly.

 

[embers25]

In SWR land, I'm surprised that they don't have a pre-recorded announcement on approach to Basingstoke to say 'your train is being held at a red signal just long enough to ensure passenger connections are missed'. Same with GWR on approach to Exeter St Davids where trains are regularly held at the signal outside the platform just long enough for all connections to leave.

 

[sharpener]

In SWR land, I'm surprised that they don't have a pre-recorded announcement on approach to Basingstoke to say 'your train is being held at a red signal just long enough to ensure passenger connections are missed'. Same with GWR on approach to Exeter St Davids where trains are regularly held at the signal outside the platform just long enough for all connections to leave.

Presumably trains are held outside while waiting for a platform, so by definition something will have to leave before they can be platformed(eugh!). Not an easy one to solve (see this thread for further examples https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-of-on-gtr-great-northern.283224/post-7290425). But some decisions seem totally inexplicable.

 

[skyhigh]

Looking back to @Mcr Warrior ’s post #4 I’m still far from clear how the original delays from the Bridlington area had anything to do with anyone’s ‘connection’.

They didn't. The actual cause for the delay was a combination of several things, though a passenger was involved in one of the things that caused a delay. I won't elaborate further as I think it would be unfair.

The link to the reason given is a little tenuous, though I'm not sure there's a better option given you have to pick from a list of reasons and can't just enter free text.

 

[embers25]

Presumably trains are held outside while waiting for a platform, so by definition something will have to leave before they can be platformed(eugh!). Not an easy one to solve (see this thread for further examples https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-of-on-gtr-great-northern.283224/post-7290425). But some decisions seem totally inexplicable.

Actually, in all cases its happened there has been nothing on or recently through the booked platform 3 at Basingstoke, just red signals for no reason on approach.

At Exeter St David's, it's usually the crossing not being activated in time meaning slow to a stop, then immediate start which, with the almost normal late running, means missing connections (except Barnstaple that they usually hold). Unless the preceding train from London is late, there is usually nothing in front of the London train at Exeter on Platform 4 (or indeed the whole way from Castle Cary) and the Barnstaple train, that would cross the track in front of the London train if it left on time, is usually held for connections.

I've lost count of the number of times my late running London train has been held outside, so it arrives into Exeter at 23.5 past and then they let the 25 past Waterloo train go 40 seconds early (as is allowed) and so you miss it. The Waterloo train then sits in Exeter Central for 3+ minutes so there is no issue with holding it for 2 minutes. Instead, you miss the connection meaning a one or two hour wait depending which station you are going to.

 

[styles]

I've had this with trains to/from ferry ports/long distance bus stops up here in Scotland. The long distance bus operators do the same, though obviously there's much less chance of this having a hit on the rest of their day's operations than delaying trains.

Also had it with connections to last trains of the day, though only after I've contacted the first train operating company to ask about onward travel to my destination since I'd miss a connection. If there's enough passengers and it won't cause knock-on effects, it may be cheaper to shell out for a few short minutes' delay than a large number of taxis or hotels etc. I'm not sure what the official process for negotiating all this is.

 

[izvor]

Ramsgate is bad for this in my experience. Latest was a 10-minute wait outside, arriving just in time to see the +9 pulling out from the adjacent platform. No reason I (or RTT) could see for this as 2 platforms free out of 4 all this time.

 

[sh24]

Taunton and points West, GWR are very good at holding their own services to allow connections. Multiple times I've seen Plymouth-Penzance services held to allow a connection off the London train and some very pro-active messaging so that people don't panic and run.

Sadly connections with XC and SWR aren't managed the same way.

 

[trainbow]

In LNER land, there are a few services that are sometimes held for a short while to maintain connections that aren’t the final service of the day.

Southbound from York, the xx02 stopper (starting at York) will be held up to about 10 minutes to maintain a connection (from the adjacent platform) with the xx59 flyer.

King’s Cross - Lincoln services will be held up to about 15 minutes at Newark Northgate xx37 if there are several passengers connecting from a delayed southbound LNER service that was due xx21, again on the adjacent platform.

On the last services quite a regular hold is the last southbound 1E29 at Doncaster for people connecting from late running Northern or TPE services. Hold up to 10-15 minutes. This service has lots of leeway so even with this hold can still arrive in KGX right time.

 

[Pinus contorta]

It happens at Lancaster on the Northern services to Barrow. Although I suspect it is often to do with consequences of Train Crew displacement.

 

[The exile]

I've had this with trains to/from ferry ports/long distance bus stops up here in Scotland. The long distance bus operators do the same, though obviously there's much less chance of this having a hit on the rest of their day's operations than delaying trains.

Also had it with connections to last trains of the day, though only after I've contacted the first train operating company to ask about onward travel to my destination since I'd miss a connection. If there's enough passengers and it won't cause knock-on effects, it may be cheaper to shell out for a few short minutes' delay than a large number of taxis or hotels etc. I'm not sure what the official process for negotiating

I’ve probably quoted my own most spectacular example of this - very late-running E* approaching Brussels - Chef de Train coming through asking about people’s onward connections. Lots of Antwerp /Ghent / Bruges - one awkward Luxembourg in the bay opposite - then it’s my turn: “Hamburg”. Cue sharp intake of breath and communications with various people. Fast-tracked through arrivals - one door still open on the sleeper which starts moving within seconds of me boarding…

 

[Parallel]

They’re quite good at holding connections at Shrewsbury for customers - particularly those transferring to/from the Aberystwyth/Pwllheli trains.

 

[Krokodil]

one door still open on the sleeper which starts moving within seconds of me boarding…

Which sleeper was this?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Happened to me at Taunton last Saturday, the 13:18 GWR to Cardiff was held for 14 minutes, waiting for a delayed XC from Plymouth, which we were told had passengers on who needed to connect for destinations that weren’t going to be served by other trains without long delays

We were kept informed, and thanks to the built in dwell at Bristol arrived in Cardiff only 7 late.

I wonder if the possibility of going over the 15 minutes delay repay threshold affects these decisions.

Couldn't they have just ran the Cardiff train into Weston Super Mare and allowed the Cross Country to overtake it on the mainline, with pax changing from the Cross Country to the Cardiff at Bristol Temple Meads?