Train stopping short & doors been opened

[David_bd19]

Hey, 1st post so please be gentle !!

Last month, my normal train home stopped short, guard open doors leaving last set way short of platform.
Got a from the guard when I asked why and surely he'd checked before opening.

Been bounced around by Northern Customer Services who say after 6 weeks we're still awaiting feedback from other teams.

Thankfully no one tried to get off via those doors but what's the views how NR should handle this?
TIA
David

 

[Sly Old Fox]

What would you like the outcome to be?

 

[stevieinselby]

Whoever was responsible needs to be – what's the phrase? – "invited for tea and biscuits". I'm sure they would have been absolutely kicking themselves, but in the case of a competency breach with such potential consequences for safety, I hope there would be some kind of assessment of whether they recognise the mistake and how serious it was.

I wouldn't expect the TOC to give you as the complainant any details of how they are dealing with it, but I would certainly expect a full apology and a reassurance that it was being dealt with.

 

[47434]

There would be an investigation and likely appropriate level discussion with the conductor (not sure they would be H,D&Q). Clearly the Contact Centre wouldn't feed back the detail but agree, some sort of 'we acknowledge your information and rest assured it will be dealt with'

 

[Horizon22]

Hey, 1st post so please be gentle !!

Last month, my normal train home stopped short, guard open doors leaving last set way short of platform.
Got a from the guard when I asked why and surely he'd checked before opening.

Been bounced around by Northern Customer Services who say after 6 weeks we're still awaiting feedback from other teams.

Thankfully no one tried to get off via those doors but what's the views how NR should handle this?
TIA
David

So Northern would do an investigation with the train crew. I am unsure if Northern is driver or guard open - another user can hopefully advise on this.

This should then be reported to the signaller, who would report it to Northern / Network Rail controller, and then the relevant crew managers would be informed too. The crew would likely be taken off duty and the train may or may not be terminated where convenient. If it wasn't reported formally, then that's much worse for the train crew as they've tried to cover up an operational incident. That would definitely be a disciplinary action - possible dismissal - as they haven't been truthful. It isn't really anything to do with Network Rail (I presume that's what you mean by "NR"?).

Where you alighting/boarding at this station? Or continuing your journey? What happened to the train do you know?

Also, what outcome are you looking for personally from Customer Services? If they're awaiting feedback from "other teams" it probably means an investigation is ongoing. I'm not sure why you want to pursue it further (unless you're looking for sort of compensation for some inconvenience caused?) because rest assured, an internal process is ongoing.

 

[66701GBRF]

Unless the individual(s) already have incidents on their record, at 6 weeks the internal process would have already been done and dusted.

 

[LowLevel]

I can tell you how Northern will handle it, there will be an internal investigation, some sort of performance improvement plan for the guard and possibly the driver and provided it isn't a regular or repeat occurrence that will be that.

The result of any of that isn't any of your business though and you won't hear about it. You've said yourself no one was hurt, you reported it, they're doing what they do in such circumstances.

Unless you want a plaque commemorating the 2024 Low Moor Memorial Stop Short incident forget about it and move on.

 

[skyhigh]

The photo in question looks to be at Low Moor station, in which case I can confirm the incident has been fully investigated and action has been taken.

It would be completely inappropriate to discuss on a public forum what action has been taken but in the circumstances it was reasonable.

Got a from the guard when I asked why and surely he'd checked before opening.

Probably because he was kicking himself at what had happened and the last thing he needed was a passenger having a go at him about why he did it.

 

[bramling]

Hey, 1st post so please be gentle !!

Last month, my normal train home stopped short, guard open doors leaving last set way short of platform.
Got a from the guard when I asked why and surely he'd checked before opening.

Been bounced around by Northern Customer Services who say after 6 weeks we're still awaiting feedback from other teams.

Thankfully no one tried to get off via those doors but what's the views how NR should handle this?
TIA
David


View attachment 157821

Northern aren’t going to share specific details of what actions have been taken. However the incident would be investigated internally and the staff involved most likely placed on some kind of action plan. If they failed to report it at the time then it would likely become a disciplinary matter.

If you’re saying that the guard was rude to you then that’s a further issue for them to investigate.

 

[dk1]

No information will be shared with the public and quite rightly so. It’s an internal matter.

 

[43066]

Last month, my normal train home stopped short, guard open doors leaving last set way short of platform.
Got a from the guard when I asked why and surely he'd checked before opening.

Presumably the guard was aware by that stage, so you weren’t exactly helping the situation by asking questions. The internal investigation and action taken is, quite rightly, not something that would be made public. I’m not sure why you’d take it upon yourself to get involved, or why you feel you’re owed any explanation?

That is categorically unacceptable and must be a disciplinary scenario

Absent covering it up, or a deliberate act, it’s not a disciplinary scenario at all.

 

[357]

That is categorically unacceptable and must be a disciplinary scenario (not necessarily a sacking, but certainly a serious warning) for the member of staff concerned.

Are you working in the industry? Have you ever tried driving a train?

 

[PupCuff]

Been bounced around by Northern Customer Services who say after 6 weeks we're still awaiting feedback from other teams.

I can't imagine there'll be much of a response to give you other than putting together some nice words thanking you for sharing the information and a reassurance that all safety incidents are fully investigated in line with industry requirements.

It's not something the railway would consider issuing compensation for, unless you were unlucky enough to alight through the door and suffered an injury as a result.

 

[dk1]

That is categorically unacceptable and must be a disciplinary scenario (not necessarily a sacking, but certainly a serious warning) for the member of staff concerned.

Very unlikely to be any disciplinary action. Would purely involve an internal enquiry and the staff member involved to be put on a plan and/or some additional training if necessary.

It’s something that used to happen and be covered up by the driver/guard involved. It’s just a shame these days everyone carries a camera on their phones & if not are quick to snitch on social media.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I am unsure if Northern is driver or guard open - another user can hopefully advise on this.

On Northern it's guard open and close.

 

[357]

Very unlikely to be any disciplinary action. Would purely involve an internal enquiry and the staff member involved to be put on a plan and/or some additional training if necessary.

Agreed. Until the investigation concluded the reason why the train stopped short wasn't even necessarily known.

 

[43066]

It’s something that used to happen and be covered up by the driver/guard involved. It’s just a shame these days everyone carries a camera on their phones & if not are quick to snitch on social media.

This is very true. It’s just not worth the risk these days to cover things up. The consequences of doing so are far more serious than just following the proper procedure and being on a plan for a few weeks.

 

[dk1]

This is very true. It’s just not worth the risk these days to cover things up. The consequences of doing so are far more serious than just following the proper procedure and being on a plan for a few weeks.

Exactly. Just hold your hands up. Wouldn’t dream of getting my conductor in any bother for something I have done.

 

[Horizon22]

This is very true. It’s just not worth the risk these days to cover things up. The consequences of doing so are far more serious than just following the proper procedure and being on a plan for a few weeks.

Luckily for railway staff the culture has generally changed to be a "fair and just" culture rather than a "blame" culture.

 

[43066]

Luckily for railway staff the culture has generally changed to be a "fair and just" culture rather than a "blame" culture.

It’s getting there slowly but surely!

I was on a train a few months back that overran a station by half a coach length. I chatted to the guard who seemed a little bit too pleased that the driver had made an error. He mentioned that he was looking to go driving and joked that there might be one more vacancy soon!

 

[CompactDstrxion]

You could always FOI them for records and correspondence relating to it. There will be redactions but likely to result in a better understanding. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/northern

 

[Moonshot]

2500 Northern services a day.....if each had 10 stops per service, that's 25000 times a train stops at a station. Over a week that's 175000 stops. At some point in that cycle there will be an error of some sort......

 

[Steve4031]

This could be extremely dangerous for a visually impaired person. They would not know that the door was not aligned with the platform.

 

[Bluejays]

Can't quite fathom the idea that you've been 'bounced around by customer services', because I can't imagine why you'd need an update.

You've reported an incident. It may not be everyone's cup of tea that you reported it, but I'd defend your right to do so and consider it a reasonable form of action.
However, the other actions you described are I'd suggest pretty unacceptable. Admonishing the guard on the platform, well done for informing them of the error, but was it really your role to give them a dressing down over it?

Then following up with northern (presumably numerous times for the 'bounced around' comment to be relevant'. This is a matter for the traincrew and their competence managers. The fact that you reported it doesn't give you a right to a 'seat at the table' so to speak in terms of deciding on the sanctions handed down.

 

[dk1]

This could be extremely dangerous for a visually impaired person. They would not know that the door was not aligned with the platform.

Of course. That is one of the more obvious dangers of such incidents and why it is taken so seriously and lessons learnt or staff reminded of correct procedures should things like this occur.

 

[dctraindriver]

Luckily for railway staff the culture has generally changed to be a "fair and just" culture rather than a "blame" culture.

Depends where you are tbh….

It’s getting there slowly but surely!

I was on a train a few months back that overran a station by half a coach length. I chatted to the guard who seemed a little bit too pleased that the driver had made an error. He mentioned that he was looking to go driving and joked that there might be one more vacancy soon!

We had one like that, he’s left now thankfully.

 

[AlbertBeale]

There would be an investigation and likely appropriate level discussion with the conductor (not sure they would be H,D&Q). Clearly the Contact Centre wouldn't feed back the detail but agree, some sort of 'we acknowledge your information and rest assured it will be dealt with'

"H,D&Q"??

 

[185]

Quite certain the train was formed of two units, given the location. Guard must work from the middle of the train. A limited number of door panels throughout the train can be used. Whilst no doubt the company would be keen to haul the driver and guard in and blame them for everything, their blame culture does not extend to the real plankton brained suit wearers who created the situation... themselves. Of course the buck stops with the guard and potentially the driver BUT, in true Ann Robinson fashion...

- Who at NR, NTL and DfT built a station with a platform measuring just 100 metres, shorter than most of today's trains?
- Which useless transport executive only wanted to pay for a platform of just 100 metres long?
- Which operations standards manager introduced rules stating the guard must be in the centre of the two coupled sets?
- Which fleet manager allowed modified trains to arrive with a limited number of guard door panels and none in the cabs?
- Who banned guards from using the door panel in the front coach of all 195s & 331s?
- Which loon at CAF installed an ASDO system frequently nicknamed ASBO or ASDA Value Door System which frequently fails?

It's time to vote off all of the above. Not just the traincrew.

 

[zwk500]

"H,D&Q"??

I assume Hung, Drawn and Quartered.

 

[stevieinselby]

Are you working in the industry? Have you ever tried driving a train?

I'm not saying that stopping short was unacceptable, I'm saying that opening the doors when one of them was not alongside the platform was unacceptable.
Whichever member of traincrew is responsible for opening the doors needs to be sure that the rearmost door (or with SDO the rearmost door that is being opened) is alongside a platform. The consequences for a visually impaired passenger using that door could be horrific.