Train ticket from Broxbourne to Euston not accepted on tube.

[jon0844]

Here's an odd one.

My parents recently went to Birmingham from Euston, but hadn't bought the ticket from home to Euston.

They bought their ticket(s) from a TVM at Broxbourne, using their senior railcard. The ticket was marked to London Terminals and they paid £5 instead of around £8.

When getting off at Tottenham Hale, to take the tube to Euston, the ticket didn't work the gate. When they went to seek assistance, they were told you can't use a senior railcard on the tube and they had to buy a new ticket. They were charged £4 for a new ticket.

He told them that loads of people try this and they were not the first.

What a load of nonsense! How can a ticket not be valid because you got a railcard discount?!

What is this guy at Tottenham Hale going on about?!

As a result, when they came back - they paid for a non-discounted ticket from Euston to Broxbourne.

 

[A60K]

Here's an odd one.

My parents recently went to Birmingham from Euston, but hadn't bought the ticket from home to Euston.

They bought their ticket(s) from a TVM at Broxbourne, using their senior railcard. The ticket was marked to London Terminals and they paid £5 instead of around £8.

When getting off at Tottenham Hale, to take the tube to Euston, the ticket didn't work the gate. When they went to seek assistance, they were told you can't use a senior railcard on the tube and they had to buy a new ticket. They were charged £4 for a new ticket.

He told them that loads of people try this and they were not the first.

What a load of nonsense! How can a ticket not be valid because you got a railcard discount?!

What is this guy at Tottenham Hale going on about?!

As a result, when they came back - they paid for a non-discounted ticket from Euston to Broxbourne.

A ticket from Broxbourne to 'London Terminals' is only valid to Liverpool Street. For travel to Euston on the Underground they would have needed a ticket to 'U1 London'.

A Senior Railcard discount would be available on a U1 London destination ticket, but wouldn't be available on an Underground-only ticket.

I wonder if perhaps they were confused by and have conflated what the person at Tottenham Hale said, or if the way that he explained it wasn't clear.

I would have expected him to say that you can't use a London Terminals ticket on the Underground, and that you can't get a railcard discount on an Underground ticket. Both are correct statements, and I can see it would be fairly easy for confusion to arise when a ticket to London Terminals is held.


I would be very surprised if he had actually stated that you can't *use* a railcard-discounted ticket on the tube, as opposed to *buy* one to travel solely on it.

 

[jon0844]

What I'm wondering is what ticket they asked for on the machine. That's quite possibly where the mistake was made.

Yes, they might have misunderstood what he said, but he did say that they weren't the first. I have to wonder what tickets are offered, and how they're advertised, on the ticket machines as it can't be that obvious a mistake if other people do it - and aren't out to defraud.

I would have expected they selected Euston on the machine, not London - as they weren't going to Liverpool Street and had no intention of going there. They knew exactly where they wanted to go.

Without being at a machine, and not using them regularly given that I have a season ticket, I am confused. I do know the ticket office wasn't open, which is why they had to use the machine.

No wonder people hate using ticket machines if they don't travel very often. It's for this reason that they didn't even get the ticket as part of the ticket to Birmingham as they thought they couldn't book tickets from another operator via the Virgin website!

I think the bit about the railcard came up because they presented their railcard (they've each only just got one as they didn't even know they existed before!) with the ticket when it asked to seek assistance. No doubt this is when they were told a railcard wasn't valid on the underground.

 

[yorkie]

"Railcard not valid on LU"? That's someone who has not got a clue about the rules. Sadly, it's not hugely uncommon to encounter such overpaid acknowledgeable people at LU gatelines, and a lack of training is a major problem (Sorry to my LU employed friends but, you know it's true!).

What tickets did they have from BHM? A through ticket to Broxbourne might have been better, that's only about £3 more for an SVR including the Tube (£30.95 BHM-BXB SVR route +Any Permitted).

London Terminals to Broxbourne with a Railcard is £5.30 for a Super Off Peak Day Return but isn't valid from Euston on the tube, although a ticket from somewhere like South Hampstead would be valid and is £9.65 for an Off Peak Day Return or £8.40 for an Anytime Single. This is cheaper than buying seperate tube tickets, but splitting the fare with Oyster PAYG at Tottenham Hale would be cheaper.

Again this is a very confusing area of ticketing and it's not surprising that people get confused and buy the wrong ticket.

If they bought a London Terminals to Broxbourne ticket and used it on LU then in theory they could have been issued with a Penalty Fare, which is effectively a legalised fine in all but name. Quite disgusting really.

 

[A60K]

If they bought a London Terminals to Broxbourne ticket and used it on LU then in theory they could have been issued with a Penalty Fare, which is effectively a legalised fine in all but name. Quite disgusting really.

In reverse, that is what they did. The ticket wouldn't let them through the barriers at Tottenham Hale (rightly) so no chance of a penalty fare there.

The question is whether the barrier staff member at Tottenham Hale said that railcard discounted tickets are not valid on the tube (which would be wrong), or whether he actually said that tickets to London Terminals are not valid on the tube (correct) and that railcards can't be used to discount tube tickets (correct again).

If the TVM at Broxbourne was asked for a ticket to London Euston and then sold a London Terminals ticket then that's the problem - in such a situation it should say 'not available' or, better, it should sell a ticket to Zone 1 valid on the Underground.

 

[robertclark125]

On the back of tickets in the 80s and 90s, it had a note saying that if the ticket had a * on it, then it could be used for travel across London on LU. Nowadays, all from and to stations have a * next to them, and the tickets don't say anything on the back about travel on LU.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/london/

This link provides more details. Look for a "t" type symbol. It'll tell you if it's valid on LUL

 

[Greenback]

This situation effectively highlights what problems can be caused with London Terminals tickets! Who can blame people for going to a TVM, seeing London Terminals, and assuming they can use such a ticket to access the London terminal station they want to go to?

This isn't a new thing, what fun I used to have telling people that if they wanted to go to Waterloo, London Bridge, Charing Cross etc from Reading, they could go via Paddington, but would have to pay for the tube, or go via the Ascot route.

Another testament to our simplified ticket system!

 

[A60K]

On the back of tickets in the 80s and 90s, it had a note saying that if the ticket had a * on it, then it could be used for travel across London on LU. Nowadays, all from and to stations have a * next to them, and the tickets don't say anything on the back about travel on LU.

I don't think that's right.

Ever since the introduction of APTIS in 1986, the symbol for cross-London travel by LU has been a + symbol in the routeing part of the ticket. The + was what appeared on the back of the ticket as well with details of what it meant.

The * that you mention was always used on APTIS at the end of short station names, to stop anything being added at the end. It was not used in relation to cross-London travel.

The same notation has been carried on in the APTIS replacement systems - nothing has changed.


I do agree that the statement about cross-London validity should be returned to the back of tickets, and I don't know why it was ever removed in the first place.

 

[jon0844]

I checked a FCC TVM and on the main screen, you have the Travelcard options and then London Terminals. Only when you go into the full menu do you get options for Underground stations (Z1), which is clearly the ticket they needed. They could get a discount on this too. I guess the machines used on NXEA must be fairly similar. Bloody hell, no wonder the guy at Tottenham Hale was saying they weren't the first!!

FCC has more than one touchscreen system, but this is the one that starts with tickets for today, tickets for tomorrow - and now a new option for car park tickets (that then says there's no car park available when you select it! Erm, Hatfield has TWO car parks!)

 

[Greenback]

It's no wonder the TOC's love the TVM's so much!

 

[jon0844]

Yes, given that I don't think FCC has yet added its super off-peak tickets to the TVMs so you can only buy them from a manned ticket office.

Also, I have been able to use a London Terminals ticket on the tube before, when going to Old Street - via King's Cross, and using the Northern Line. Never been refused access, even though the ticket won't operate the gate.

 

[Daniel]

Just because you're allowed access with a ticket doesn't mean it is valid, and just because you've been allowed through a gate by a member of staff doesn't mean you won't be penalty fared by an RCI if you're inspected and are not valid!

 

[A60K]

For the journey that Jon describes his ticket is valid though - London Terminals tickets that would have a valid route to Moorgate via Finsbury Park can be used on the tube between Kings Cross and Old Street/Moorgate to allow for when the Northern City line is closed. This should be mentioned in LU documentation somewhere - or has it been removed by mistake?

I agree with you that if you blag your way through a barrier with a ticket that you know to be invalid and get caught by an RPI you've only got yourself to blame, but that's not what Jon is talking about here.

 

[jon0844]

The Northern Line/Northern City line (that must confuse people in itself) is one such anomaly that doesn't really help the 'London Terminals' situation. That's why I thought I'd mention it to see if it was known. One did, one didn't - 50%.

 

[jon0844]

I actually took a photo of a ticket machine and think that the London Terminals ticket is somewhat confusing if you assume it means London TerminalS, as in all of them - with the only method of transport to connect them being the tube or bus.

There's nothing in info to say you can't, or clarify the situation. It says 'Valid as advertised'... well isn't that what the info page is for? Where is the advertising for this ticket then?

This is FCC, not NXEA but I am sure it's the same.



I like the way it prints text over other text. Someone obviously did proper usability testing on this machine!!

The first class ticket is highlighted in red, presumably as a warning that it's a FC ticket - or perhaps to encourage you to select it! And, it says 'First' not 'First Class', so is it a ticket for use on a First (Group) operator?

And we wonder why people won't use ticket machines!!!

I have to say that if I had these screens, I'd buy that ticket and expect to get from Hatfield to King's Cross, Victoria, Paddington, Euston, Liverpool Street.... at least until I saw a note saying that it had to be on the same line, and did NOT allow use on the tube.

 

[Greenback]

You've made some excellent points as usual Jon. Until the rail industry starts making TVM's mor euser friendly for irregular or first time travellers, they should not be allowed to reduce or withdraw staffing at ticket offices. First Group has always caused problems with its name, remember when the put the First logo all over Great Western standard class, and people thought they couldn't sit there?!

These TVM's seem to require users to have specialistknowledge of the railway system and the vagaries of ticketing and the routeing guide even before they start!

 

[yorkie]

There's nothing in info to say you can't, or clarify the situation. It says 'Valid as advertised'... well isn't that what the info page is for? Where is the advertising for this ticket then?

It's advertised in the top-secret FRPP or, simply "The Manual" as it is now known. No, we may not see it. It's for internal use only, so they can catch us out and threaten us with penalty fares.

IANAL but I reckon if someone had the cash, we could put together a very good legal case to challenge the TOCs...

 

[Philip Brown]

Is it not possible to submit a Freedom of Information request to receive a copy of "The Manual?" If it's published by NR, as a public body, then it should be made publicly available, on request.