Train ticket price is this vaild

[Josh Robin]

So I found out a if you buy and return ticket form strood to charing. It also vaild on highspeed line going via Ashford international.

On further notice I arrived at Ebbsfleet and the station managers don't believe it vaild ticket and that it should be via Tonbridge, Maidstone

But ticket is vaild as any permitted route when given this.

And used twice today and was told there discussion about said ticket. Is this the end

Or am I actually not using a vaild ticket ?

 

[andythebrave]

It's an itinerary that is easily reproducible so I'd say entirely valid.

Using the forum's booking site gives a single fare of £12.50 btw.

 

[jfollows]

I don't understand why you were issued this ticket against this itinerary, but it doesn't matter: the fact that you have the itinerary means that the ticket is valid. I can see why the people at Ebbsfleet were surprised, but it doesn't matter, if you have an itinerary and you take the trains on it then the ticket is valid on those trains.

(The ticket is routed "any permitted" and Ashford & Otford are the routeing points defined for Charing, however I would have thought that the "fare rule" would prohibit travel via Ashford.) (Strood-Ashford via HS1 is £32.20 CDR via HS1)

 

[yorkie]

So I found out a if you buy and return ticket form strood to charing. It also vaild on highspeed line going via Ashford international.

On further notice I arrived at Ebbsfleet and the station managers don't believe it vaild ticket and that it should be via Tonbridge, Maidstone

But ticket is vaild as any permitted route when given this.

And used twice today and was told there discussion about said ticket. Is this the end

Or am I actually not using a vaild ticket ?

It's valid as per the itinerary (this is basic consumer/contract law, but also ratified by the National Rail website), but it's unlikely that you will continue to be able to purchase tickets with such an itinerary in future.

You used barriers at Ebbsfleet to interchange, and that's why the interaction took place, is that right? Does anyone know if there is a way to avoid the barriers, as this could reduce the chance of a negative interaction with unknowledgeable staff.

I am not surprised you experienced this sort of behaviour from Southeastern gateline staff; I've witnessed similar myself and know others have too. It's not uncommon within the rail industry but is a particular issue on the HS1 route, and has been ever since it opened.

 

[Josh Robin]

It's valid as per the itinerary (this is basic consumer/contract law, but also ratified by the National Rail website), but it's unlikely that you will continue to be able to purchase tickets with such an itinerary in future.

You used barriers at Ebbsfleet to interchange, and that's why the interaction took place, is that right? Does anyone know if there is a way to avoid the barriers, as this could reduce the chance of a negative interaction with unknowledgeable staff.

I am not surprised you experienced this sort of behaviour from Southeastern gateline staff; I've witnessed similar myself and know others have too. It's not uncommon within the rail industry but is a particular issue on the HS1 route, and has been ever since it opened.

Sadly no barriers got enter , I always show them my confirmed booking order and they go it vaild hopefully it goes for Long been doing it now for the past few months

I don't understand why you were issued this ticket against this itinerary, but it doesn't matter: the fact that you have the itinerary means that the ticket is valid. I can see why the people at Ebbsfleet were surprised, but it doesn't matter, if you have an itinerary and you take the trains on it then the ticket is valid on those trains.

(The ticket is routed "any permitted" and Ashford & Otford are the routeing points defined for Charing, however I would have thought that the "fare rule" would prohibit travel via Ashford.) (Strood-Ashford via HS1 is £32.20 CDR via HS1)

It doesn't and you don't even have to any the via or avoid thing either it just gives two options either get the 13:35 train from strood via Ebbsfleet and change at Ashford to to train to charing for 15:03 which works perfectly for my job as I got start work at 15:30 and is a ten minutes cycle down the road

It's valid as per the itinerary (this is basic consumer/contract law, but also ratified by the National Rail website), but it's unlikely that you will continue to be able to purchase tickets with such an itinerary in future.

You used barriers at Ebbsfleet to interchange, and that's why the interaction took place, is that right? Does anyone know if there is a way to avoid the barriers, as this could reduce the chance of a negative interaction with unknowledgeable staff.

I am not surprised you experienced this sort of behaviour from Southeastern gateline staff; I've witnessed similar myself and know others have too. It's not uncommon within the rail industry but is a particular issue on the HS1 route, and has been ever since it opened.

Does feel like a gamble some days I can go perfectly no hassle other days there one staff member who kicks a hissy fit about it and trying to say it not vaild into I show said booking,

Best one was I even brought an advanced ticket from them and it told to change via Ebbsfleet and they still insisted it not vaild which makes no sense as it only vaild for them booked trains

It's an itinerary that is easily reproducible so I'd say entirely valid.

Using the forum's booking site gives a single fare of £12.50 btw.

So there no High speed tickets or upgrade this ticket only even phoned southeastern and get told the same thing, like

 

[Benjwri]

The ticket is routed "any permitted" and Ashford & Otford are the routeing points defined for Charing, however I would have thought that the "fare rule" would prohibit travel via Ashford.) (Strood-Ashford via HS1 is £32.20 CDR via HS1

Both routeing points fail the ‘fare check rule’, so there are no mapped route. The only valid routes are the shortest and any within 3 miles. I wonder if it might be through this that the journey is being offered?

 

[Haywain]

Both routeing points fail the ‘fare check rule’, so there are no mapped route. The only valid routes are the shortest and any within 3 miles. I wonder if it might be through this that the journey is being offered?

Looks like it's permitted by mileage, it's around 48 miles via Maidstone or via Ebbsfleet.

 

[Josh Robin]

Looks like it's permitted by mileage, it's around 48 miles via Maidstone or via Ebbsfleet.

Wonder if they will still allow it e.g you can't break or resume service, or something like it

I do wonder how long it vaild for as 98% people actually are fine with it just the 2% that do like it ,

Would it be vaild to use it and break said journeys?

As I can't find anything about it having an easements

 

[yorkie]

I would expect to see this fare be re-routed, with "Any Permitted" replaced with "Not via HS1" and "Plus High Speed" options in the not too distant future.

Would it be vaild to use it and break said journeys?

Valid? Yes
Hassle-free? No!

 

[Haywain]

As I can't find anything about it having an easements

No easement is needed for a route that is the shortest route or within 3 miles of the shortest route.

 

[Benjwri]

I would expect to see this fare be re-routed, with "Any Permitted" replaced with "Not via HS1" and "Plus High Speed" options in the not too distant future.

Would a ‘Not via HS1’ routed ticket have any valid routes, or would an easement be required?

 

[kieran_]

So I found out a if you buy and return ticket form strood to charing. It also vaild on highspeed line going via Ashford international.

On further notice I arrived at Ebbsfleet and the station managers don't believe it vaild ticket and that it should be via Tonbridge, Maidstone

But ticket is vaild as any permitted route when given this.

And used twice today and was told there discussion about said ticket. Is this the end

Or am I actually not using a vaild ticket ?

I might be the reason why as I reported them other day due to making me nealry 3 hours late for work .and got this email saying it is vaild unknown now for how long and most likey would get withdrawn

I mean both take roughly the same time like
1hr 28m via ebbsfleet
1h via ebbsfleet
1h 19 min via Maidstone

Depends on times so they probably charge like for only few minutes saved possibly or something I might of been end of this ticket as it been vaild via any permitted for a long time , even checking old Fare data it says vaild any permitted route form like 2018. And used the journey form around 2020 so it been going for a while for me but only just recently it been an issue with it and I don't understand how

Would a ‘Not via HS1’ routed ticket have any valid routes, or would an easement be required?

 

[Josh Robin]

I might be the reason why as I reported them other day due to making me nealry 3 hours late for work .and got this email saying it is vaild unknown now for how long and most likey would get withdrawn

I mean both take roughly the same time like
1hr 28m via ebbsfleet
1h via ebbsfleet
1h 19 min via Maidstone

Depends on times so they probably charge like for only few minutes saved possibly or something I might of been end of this ticket as it been vaild via any permitted for a long time , even checking old Fare data it says vaild any permitted route form like 2018. And used the journey form around 2020 so it been going for a while for me but only just recently it been an issue with it and I don't understand how

So that means I can travel then via Ebbsfleet as they say it an non standard route

Would a ‘Not via HS1’ routed ticket have any valid routes, or would an easement be required?

I hope an easement like passenger can travel via Ashford and ebbsfleet int only for changing trains even if it in in one direction or both

 

[yorkie]

I hope an easement like passenger can travel via Ashford and ebbsfleet int only for changing trains even if it in in one direction or both

That's not how easements work and in any case easements are not relevant to this matter.

 

[Benjwri]

That's not how easements work and in any case easements are not relevant to this matter.

They aren’t now, but were a ‘Not via HS1’ ticket introduced there would need to be an easement as there would not be a valid route to take on the ticket.

 

[yorkie]

They aren’t now, but were a ‘Not via HS1’ ticket introduced there would need to be an easement as there would not be a valid route to take on the ticket.

It's also valid via Maidstone with no easement required.

 

[MikeWh]

It's also valid via Maidstone with no easement required.

I guess the issue could be that via Maidstone requires walking between stations?

 

[yorkie]

I guess the issue could be that via Maidstone requires walking between stations?

It does indeed, so cannot form the shortest route and of course not everyone would want to do that.

But it is possible for this to be the only permitted route on a (currently theoretical) "Not via HS1" ticket; an example of the same concept would be Halifax to Shipley, where there are "Not via Leeds" and "Any Permitted" routeings.

 

[plugwash]

You used barriers at Ebbsfleet to interchange, and that's why the interaction took place, is that right? Does anyone know if there is a way to avoid the barriers,

Short of travelling to Stratford and back (which I presume would not be valid on the OP's ticket), there doesn't seem to be any way to avoid the barriers at Ebsfleet. Platfoms 2/3 (trains to/from ashford) and platforms 5/6 (trains to/from gravesend) seem to be virtually seperate stations with separate entrances and ticket barriers.

 

[island]

The ticket's intended to be used via Tonbridge (or with a walk from Maidstone West to East) but it's clearly valid per the itinerary sold. I haven't assessed whether it is formally valid as shortest route. It would fail the fares check in the Routeing Guide if using maps.

As others mention, it's likely to get replaced with a route Not valid on HS1 ticket and a higher priced plus high speed ticket added.

I mean both take roughly the same time like
1hr 28m via ebbsfleet
1h via ebbsfleet
1h 19 min via Maidstone

Whether a journey is longer or shorter in duration has no relevance to validity.

 

[BluePenguin]

Another cat out of the bag, if we could all please stop commenting on this thread and stop raising the alarm, in the hope that nothing is done about the fare that would be great. Some of us would not like the loophole fares valid on HS1 to disappear. Complaining to Customer Services and the like is never going to have a favourable outcome.

 

[Haywain]

The ticket's intended to be used via Tonbridge (or with a walk from Maidstone West to East) but it's clearly valid per the itinerary sold. I haven't assessed whether it is formally valid as shortest route.

The shortest route by rail is via Paddock Wood, and I doubt that going to Tonbridge would be acceptable. The route via Ebbsfleet and HS1 is only very marginally longer (according to RailMiles a matter of 12 chains longer!).

if we could all please stop commenting on this thread and not raise in the alarm, in the hope that nothing is done about the fare that would be great.

It's a bit late for that.

Some of us would like the loophole fares valid on HS1 to disappear.

I'm confused now...

 

[BluePenguin]

It's a bit late for that

Really? Do you know if this is already being changed?

I'm confused now...

Typo duly changed

 

[yorkie]

Another cat out of the bag, if we could all please stop commenting on this thread and stop raising the alarm, in the hope that nothing is done about the fare that would be great. Some of us would like the loophole fares valid on HS1 to disappear. Complaining to Customer Services and the like is never going to have a favourable outcome.

Southeastern are already aware of it through customer correspondence; admittedly this forum is often a better way to alert pricing managers (whether you want to or not!) than customer services, who don't always pass relevant information on, but in this case the relevant people are clearly already aware.

And irrespective of that, even if it's only been on this forum a relatively short time, the cat will already be out the bag; anyone who works with rail fares is likely to be visiting this forum on a frequent basis!

If anyone wants to use these fares longer term, then the only way to guarantee availability at the current price is to buy as many as possible as far in advance as possible.

Good value fares don't last forever unfortunately as the rail industry does aim to charge as much as the market will bear, in an effort to charge as much as the spiralling costs of our ineffficient rail network to farepayers as possible.

Really? Do you know if this is already being changed?

It's extremely likely.

 

[Josh Robin]

The ticket's intended to be used via Tonbridge (or with a walk from Maidstone West to East) but it's clearly valid per the itinerary sold. I haven't assessed whether it is formally valid as shortest route. It would fail the fares check in the Routeing Guide if using maps.

As others mention, it's likely to get replaced with a route Not valid on HS1 ticket and a higher priced plus high speed ticket added.


Whether a journey is longer or shorter in duration has no relevance to validity.

How do you find out Routing guides and fare checks. And how can their website sell the tickets saying to go via Ebbsfleet and Ashford

Another cat out of the bag, if we could all please stop commenting on this thread and stop raising the alarm, in the hope that nothing is done about the fare that would be great. Some of us would not like the loophole fares valid on HS1 to disappear. Complaining to Customer Services and the like is never going to have a favourable outcome

Think that be to late now as staff at Ebbsfleet where showing the ticket off when I tried to go through barriers and saying it that ticket again,

 

[jfollows]

How do you find out Routing guides and fare checks. And how can their website sell the tickets saying to go via Ebbsfleet and Ashford

https://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide has most of what you need, it's quite complex because it's grown up over time, "Section F" gives detailed instructions. This forum runs free fares workshops also which go into more detail.

 

[Josh Robin]

https://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide has most of what you need, it's quite complex because it's grown up over time, "Section F" gives detailed instructions. This forum runs free fares workshops also which go into more detail.

So this shows the vaild but does this mean ticket that give you to go via and fail make it subject to Penalty fares ? If it failed even though you have the tickets and times showing to take it via whatever station

 

[jfollows]

Then https://www.brfares.com/!expert?orig=SOO&dest=CHG shows the fares available in detail, and if "any permitted" this means that the routeing guide can be used to determine valid routes.
In this specific case it looks like the only valid routes are direct trains (none) and shortest route (or within 3 miles of the shortest route) and this is what makes the HS1 route via Ashford valid.
The likely change will be away from "any permitted" to something like "not HS1" which will then invalidate this route, so use it while you can and it remains valid!

So this shows the vaild but does this mean ticket that give you to go via and fail make it subject to Penalty fares ? If it failed even though you have the tickets and times showing to take it via whatever station

I may have answered your question as you were typing, but if not please come back.
In your case, as long as you have an itinerary associated with the ticket (as you showed us at the start) then the trains shown are valid for the ticket.

 

[Josh Robin]

Then https://www.brfares.com/!expert?orig=SOO&dest=CHG shows the fares available in detail, and if "any permitted" this means that the routeing guide can be used to determine valid routes.
In this specific case it looks like the only valid routes are direct trains (none) and shortest route (or within 3 miles of the shortest route) and this is what makes the HS1 route via Ashford valid.
The likely change will be away from "any permitted" to something like "not HS1" which will then invalidate this route, so use it while you can and it remains valid!

Roughly how quickly do you think it will take them overnight or over a few months?

 

[jfollows]

Roughly how quickly do you think it will take them overnight or over a few months?

If they want to do it, it could be done in a few days, definitely weeks and not months.