Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[GRALISTAIR]

Busses

Uggh - so not diesel haulage like in the good old days?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Uggh - so not diesel haulage like in the good old days?

Diesel haulage of sorts, sure

With regard to the 'enemy territory' question, my initial point was about the areas covered by West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester fire crews respectively, rather than an attempt to re-ignite cross-boundary tensions!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

However on the Railway the boundary between what was Eastern and Midland regions upto at least 2010 was approx the West Portal of Standedge tunnel.
Actually the small culvert a few yards west.
So Diggle could be held to be in enemy territory.

Nah, it was all LNWR.
The enemy started in Leeds... (GN)

 

[edwin_m]

With regard to the 'enemy territory' question, my initial point was about the areas covered by West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester fire crews respectively, rather than an attempt to re-ignite cross-boundary tensions!

Or re-start the Wars of the Roses?

 

[pemma]

How will TPE cope with off-wire diversions once they've redeployed the 185s to non electric routes and 350s are the main traction?

Hull to Manchester is set to remain an hourly diesel service (Monday to Saturday daytime) which means the same diesels can be used to provide overnight or Sunday services diverted via Wakefield or Brighouse.

350s are unlikely to be the main traction on North TPE though unless LM give up 350s. The 350s are an outdated design incompatible with the newer 380s, which is why LM wanted new 350s. TPE, only required 10 units for Scottish services, which meant the options effectively were 350s (added on to a LM order), 377s (added on to a Southern order) or short Pendolinos (added on to the Virgin order - as if DfT would have agreed to that!)

 

[WatcherZero]

Or re-start the Wars of the Roses?

I will grab my black puddings then!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-24007633

350s are unlikely to be the main traction on North TPE though unless LM give up 350s. The 350s are an outdated design incompatible with the newer 380s, which is why LM wanted new 350s. TPE, only required 10 units for Scottish services, which meant the options effectively were 350s (added on to a LM order), 377s (added on to a Southern order) or short Pendolinos (added on to the Virgin order - as if DfT would have agreed to that!)

Yep, 380 is something of a hybrid of the existing Desiro and future Desiro City models that came about as Siemens wanted to shift over production to the newer model while Transport Scotland wanted the proven older model which led to a compromise design, a Desiro 1.5 if you will. LM still had production options on its 350 order so for them they could ask for a few more of the previous order.

 

[pemma]

I will grab my black puddings then!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-24007633

I think they should bring it up-to-date.

The regular TPE passengers should be given a pie made in Wigan one day and one made in Denby Dale the next day. Then they vote for their favourite.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Diesel haulage of sorts, sure

In the good old days it was
Nuneaton-Birmingham Class 58 (diverted off the electrified)
Wigan -Lostock Junction-Preston - Class 20s pair or 47 or Class 40 or 31s
Carlisle - Preston via SC - Pair of NB 31s or ETH if you were not as lucky.
Preston -Crewe - usually a class 47 but could be other

Oh well - that was the past.

 

[Eagle]

How will TPE cope with off-wire diversions once they've redeployed the 185s to non electric routes and 350s are the main traction?

North TPE isn't getting 350s.

 

[noddingdonkey]

But EMUs of some description, so the question of how they will divert after electrification is still valid

 

[Eagle]

Via Edinburgh

 

[HSTEd]

But EMUs of some description, so the question of how they will divert after electrification is still valid

They simply won't.

Why are people so obsessed with diversion routes?
The most efficient course is to put on busses.

 

[edwin_m]

They simply won't.

Why are people so obsessed with diversion routes?
The most efficient course is to put on busses.

I think it's a very valid question. Research by Passenger Focus, as well as many people expressing views here, indicates that people would much prefer to stay on a train.

For an evening or Sunday diversion Northern would have spare DMUs and crews and in an ideal world TPE would hire these resources to put on alternative services on a non-electrified route. If Northern and TPE were merged into one franchise this might even become more likely.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Were any lessons learned by First TPE learned from the matter earlier this year in the Hatfield & Stainforth area that saw enforced route changes on the services to Cleethorpes ?

 

[HSTEd]

But there are no practical diversionary routes for electric stock.

And Hiring in diesel stock is going to be ridiculously expensive.

So there are no other options than busses.

 

[Buspilot]

The rail companies would soon find an alternative to bus replacements, if they were forced to make cash refunds, to reflect that change and comparative cost in mode of transport to every passenger trans shipped.

Bus replacement has become too easy an option.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I imagine the issues of diversions will add to any future cost/benefit analysis of the Calder Valley route looking ahead to CP6 and beyond. But initially there'll be little alternative than buses*.



*Not busses. What's a buss? (/pedant mode off).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The rail companies would soon find an alternative to bus replacements, if they were forced to make cash refunds, to reflect that change and comparative cost in mode of transport to every passenger trans shipped.

Bus replacement has become too easy an option.

But kindly remember that we are often informed there are no "spare stock" units hanging around idly in depots on this website.

 

[pemma]

I imagine the issues of diversions will add to any future cost/benefit analysis of the Calder Valley route

Note that TPE never divert via Bradford now. If the line via Dewsbury is closed then they divert via Wakefield.

I think Wakefield-Huddersfield will finish up a bit like Oxenholme to Windermere in that the usual service is too infrequent to normally justify electrification but under the circumstances electrification could be looked at.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The rail companies would soon find an alternative to bus replacements, if they were forced to make cash refunds, to reflect that change and comparative cost in mode of transport to every passenger trans shipped.

While EMT recently offered discounts to compensate for replacement bus services during Nottingham engineering work there are issues that need to addressed to make that a proper solution.

For example, Sheffield to Nottingham (set by EMT) was discounted during the engineering works. Huddersfield to Nottingham via Sheffield (set by Northern) was full price during the engineering works.

Then what if there are two or more permitted routes e.g. Liverpool-Manchester? Currently, TPE, who set the fare may not reduce fares if Chat Moss is closed as they don't operate via Chat Moss but some passengers buying Liverpool-Manchester tickets will be inconvenienced, yet others won't.

 

[edwin_m]

But kindly remember that we are often informed there are no "spare stock" units hanging around idly in depots on this website.

We're talking late evenings and Sundays here, when the service is significantly less than in the peaks, so I would argue there was likely to be spare stock available if sensible arrangements could be made to use it. As I suggested above, merging TP and Northern franchises could make this much easier.

 

[pemma]

As I suggested above, merging TP and Northern franchises could make this much easier.

Assuming a reasonable amount of long diesel distance stock is retained and keeps an appropriate interior. If, for instance, the 185s get refurbished with a more commuter style layout and get moved to other routes then they'll be less suitable for filling for longer distance EMUs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

We're talking late evenings and Sundays here, when the service is significantly less than in the peaks, so I would argue there was likely to be spare stock available if sensible arrangements could be made to use it. As I suggested above, merging TP and Northern franchises could make this much easier.

After electrification there will be plenty of spare diesel stock lying about, especially at weekends.
Unfortunately it will all be Pacers...

There could be some interesting electric diversions though.
a) either way round Manchester
b) Liverpool-Manchester via Crewe or Preston
c) Leeds-York via Doncaster (or maybe Selby depending on what's wired)
It's just Manchester-Leeds which has no alternative at all.
And York-Newcastle for that matter.

 

[edwin_m]

Assuming a reasonable amount of long diesel distance stock is retained and keeps an appropriate interior. If, for instance, the 185s get refurbished with a more commuter style layout and get moved to other routes then they'll be less suitable for filling for longer distance EMUs.

Probably still better than a bus though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

After electrification there will be plenty of spare diesel stock lying about, especially at weekends.
Unfortunately it will all be Pacers...

There could be some interesting electric diversions though.
a) either way round Manchester
b) Liverpool-Manchester via Crewe or Preston
c) Leeds-York via Doncaster (or maybe Selby depending on what's wired)
It's just Manchester-Leeds which has no alternative at all.
And York-Newcastle for that matter.

I would have thought there would be enough units used for peak strengthening that would be available at other times for diversions, without having to keep some going that would otherwise be scrapped. If we're only talking Manchester-Leeds then running double units on the Calder Valley should be enough.

Good thought on the number of diversions. Liverpool-Manchester will also be possible via Wigan.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Assuming a reasonable amount of long diesel distance stock is retained and keeps an appropriate interior. If, for instance, the 185s get refurbished with a more commuter style layout and get moved to other routes then they'll be less suitable for filling for longer distance EMUs.

Did you have any suitable non-electrified routes in mind that these powerful units, suitably refurbished to a more commuter style layout would excel upon, such as the Calder Valley line and CLC Warrington line, where they would not be straying far from their existing maintenance depot.

I did not bring the mid-Cheshire line into the equation as I am unsure of how the Class 185 units and their weight would be affected by the trackwork and the underlying ground stability in certain sections of this particular line.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Probably still better than a bus though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good thought on the number of diversions. Liverpool-Manchester will also be possible via Wigan.

exactly - I was just about to post about that. Good job I read the whole thread. I did this a few times in the 80s and 90s. A pair of 20s was put on at Wigan (not Preston) and hauled via Lostock Junction. Wonderful.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A pair of 20s was put on at Wigan (not Preston) and hauled via Lostock Junction. Wonderful.

Those indeed were the days to remember.

 

[pemma]

Did you have any suitable non-electrified routes in mind that these powerful units, suitably refurbished to a more commuter style layout would excel upon, such as the Calder Valley line and CLC Warrington line, where they would not be straying far from their existing maintenance depot.

I was speaking hypothetically rather than having specific routes in mind but Calder Vale and Buxton lines are both ones that could utilise hill climbing ability but would really need a higher density seating arrangement than the current 185 layout.

I did not bring the mid-Cheshire line into the equation as I am unsure of how the Class 185 units and their weight would be affected by the trackwork and the underlying ground stability in certain sections of this particular line.

Tata Chemicals send freight trains along the Mid-Cheshire line with around 20 wagons full of limestone so I think the track on that section of the line would be capable of taking a formation of multiple 185s.

The heaviest trains to run the whole line would be the diverted/ECS 3 car 175s, which at 144t is heavier than Northern doing a 6 car 150 ECS movement but lighter than a 185 at 168t.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Tata Chemicals send freight trains along the Mid-Cheshire line.

Do they traverse the whole route from Mouldsworth to Altrincham ?

 

[pemma]

Do they traverse the whole route from Mouldsworth to Altrincham ?

Northenden (from where there is a freight only branch towards Derbyshire) to Winnington works (which has a branch off the Mid-Cheshire line between Northwich and Greenbank.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Northenden (from where there is a freight only branch towards Derbyshire) to Winnington works (which has a branch off the Mid-Cheshire line between Northwich and Greenbank.)

Is there no longer any heavy freight haulage from Mouldsworth to the Northwich area ?