Travel incident report reply — reusing anytime return?

[Ajsudh]

Hi all,

To make it quick, I was travelling from Preston to Manchester Piccadilly and had an anytime return. I commute into work 2-3 times per week so for the past year, my Trainline records show consistent purchase of e-tickets and an up to date railcard.

A colleague who I work with’s girlfriend lives near me, so sometimes when this colleague is going to his girlfriend’s after work he’ll give me a lift home (and on some mornings if he’s stayed at hers for the night he’ll give me a lift into work if I’m in the office), but because of his role in our workplace, he’s in and out of the office at different times much more so only lets me know at maybe 16:00 if he can offer to give me a lift home. I usually purchase my train tickets about a month in advance to get them cheaper, but sometimes I leave it last minute, so when I do accept lifts from my colleague, sometimes I’ll reschedule my train ticket, or if I’ve not yet bought a return for that day, I won’t bother buying one obviously.

Anyway, so a couple weeks back I was anticipating that my colleague might be able to give me a lift back because he usually visits his gf this day, but he had to stay behind so I purchased an anytime return, which was the last available ticket for this service (Northern). It didn’t get scanned, no big deal, sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. I get off at Manchester Piccadilly as always where your tickets are scanned on the barrier and leave. This was I think on a Friday, and I remember my colleague giving me a lift into work on one day when I was next in the office the following week, so didn’t get tickets as I usually would that morning. Got the train back, scanned out as normal, forgetting I hadn’t purchased new tickets this morning and on the trainline app, the most ‘recent’ ticket is displayed on top so I just autopilot scanned on and went about my evening. So the next time I come into the office, I get on the train to get home. That time I do remember that my ticket isn’t valid anymore but I just think, whatever, it’s Friday, and I’m already on the train now, I’ll buy tickets for next week once I get paid. Inspector/loss prevention officer or what have you checks my ticket, scans it, and says he’s issuing me with a travel incident report because my ticket has been scanned thrice.

Now I’m confused because unless he’s counting his scan, it should’ve only been scanned twice (both times leaving the barrier at Piccadilly). Anyway I’m drafting a reply to the letter I received from Northern with the standard “we are now giving you a chance to give your version of events before we start investigating” etc.

I’ve seen a few posts on here that detail the best way to write an email in response would be to own up, apologise, say it won’t happen again, show what steps you’ve taken to ensure this, say you’ll appreciate that it’s settled out of court, etc. etc.

My thing is, I’ve recently passed my driving test (November) and I am hopefully getting a new car soon after months of saving so shouldn’t have to rely on the trains for much longer anyhow.

Can I get people’s thoughts on the following:

“Dear sirs,

Thank you for your letter dated XX Feb 2024. I would respond as follows:

[Paragraph taking accountability for my oversight].

Rest assured, it was a momentary lapse of judgement and shall not happen again, especially due to the fact that, once I am able to acquire my own car within the next coming weeks, I shall be commuting by driving instead of using the train. As you can see from my purchase history dating back the last year, I have been consistent in obtaining the appropriate tickets for my commute, which I hope stands as testament to the fact that this was indeed a singular mistake on my behalf.

However, I would be happy to pay any administrative cost that you see fit to issue in this regard.

Kind regards,
XXX”

 

[Titfield]

Please can you upload the letter you have received with all personal and identifying references obscured?

Only answer the question you have been asked. Do not incriminate yourself., ( i suggest you see other forum posts on this subject).

I would not suggest making any reference to acquiring a car and henceforth making the journeys by car. IMHO it sets the wrong tone.

Never say "any" administrative cost because if there is a range of admin costs they could apply they will naturally go for the highest based on your statement.

Phrases such as "rest assured" "singular mistake" "stands as testament" are slightly old fashioned forms of language. You say a momentary lapse of judgement and a singular mistake but if it had been used thrice (three times) then it was not a singular mistake. (I note your statement that it had been scanned twice and not thrice).

I am not sure that referring to your online purchase history is such a good idea as if they do so they may find details which they believe to be consistent with a pattern of not purchasing the correct ticket.

Whilst it may well be for good and verifiable reasons, a difference between the number of one way tickets TO work and the number of one way tickets FROM work, booking and then cancelling tickets for a refund or cancelling the return part only of a return ticket will always give rise to suspicions that unscanned tickets are being used multiple times or refunded after (unchecked) use.

 

[Ajsudh]

Please can you upload the letter you have received with all personal and identifying references obscured?

Only answer the question you have been asked. Do not incriminate yourself., ( i suggest you see other forum posts on this subject).

I would not suggest making any reference to acquiring a car and henceforth making the journeys by car. IMHO it sets the wrong tone.

Never say "any" administrative cost because if there is a range of admin costs they could apply they will naturally go for the highest based on your statement.

Phrases such as "rest assured" "singular mistake" "stands as testament" are slightly old fashioned forms of language. You say a momentary lapse of judgement and a singular mistake but if it had been used thrice (three times) then it was not a singular mistake. (I note your statement that it had been scanned twice and not thrice).

I am not sure that referring to your online purchase history is such a good idea as if they do so they may find details which they believe to be consistent with a pattern of not purchasing the correct ticket.

Whilst it may well be for good and verifiable reasons, a difference between the number of one way tickets TO work and the number of one way tickets FROM work, booking and then cancelling tickets for a refund or cancelling the return part only of a return ticket will always give rise to suspicions that unscanned tickets are being used multiple times or refunded after (unchecked) use.

The letter I received from northern said:

“Dear ___

This office acts as the prosecuting authority for Northern Trains Limited.

On Friday 23 February 2024 at 18:03 you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of Railways Regulations. An evidential report has been submitted to this office regarding this incident. Before the company proceeds further with its investigation in respect of this matter, we would like to give you an opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it. Please complete the bottom section of this letter and if you wish to make any comments, please do so on the reverse. Only written mitigation will be accepted.

As you will appreciate, this could be a serious matter; therefore it is imperative that you respond as soon as possible to ascertain the full facts in this matter. Your response can be sent to [email protected] or the above free post address. Failure to respond to this reasonable request within 14 days of the date of this letter will result in legal action being taken (Regulation of Railways Act and Railway Byelaws apply*).

Should legal proceedings be invoked, in addition to any fines imposed by the court there will be an application for a minimum of £150 as a contribution to our costs.”

Thanks so much for the advice you’ve provided, noted. With the tickets that have been changed and cancelled when my colleague has given my a lift to/from, I would always cancel these before the train departed so there wouldn’t have been any chance I would have had the opportunity to hop on a train beforehand. Plus these would’ve been cancelled within the 9-5 hours in which I have never boarded a train since I’ll have been in work. The only other times I have requested a refund will have been if a train was delayed or cancelled.

Would you be able to advise as to how I can rewrite it a little better? With all the above removed, I can’t really think of what else to say.

I am unsure of how else to show the intention that this will never happen again save for mention of getting a car soon and making reference to my purchase history showing that it’s never happened before.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all,

To make it quick, I was travelling from Preston to Manchester Piccadilly and had an anytime return. I commute into work 2-3 times per week so for the past year, my Trainline records show consistent purchase of e-tickets and an up to date railcard.

A colleague who I work with’s girlfriend lives near me, so sometimes when this colleague is going to his girlfriend’s after work he’ll give me a lift home (and on some mornings if he’s stayed at hers for the night he’ll give me a lift into work if I’m in the office), but because of his role in our workplace, he’s in and out of the office at different times much more so only lets me know at maybe 16:00 if he can offer to give me a lift home. I usually purchase my train tickets about a month in advance to get them cheaper, but sometimes I leave it last minute, so when I do accept lifts from my colleague, sometimes I’ll reschedule my train ticket, or if I’ve not yet bought a return for that day, I won’t bother buying one obviously.

Anyway, so a couple weeks back I was anticipating that my colleague might be able to give me a lift back because he usually visits his gf this day, but he had to stay behind so I purchased an anytime return, which was the last available ticket for this service (Northern). It didn’t get scanned, no big deal, sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. I get off at Manchester Piccadilly as always where your tickets are scanned on the barrier and leave. This was I think on a Friday, and I remember my colleague giving me a lift into work on one day when I was next in the office the following week, so didn’t get tickets as I usually would that morning. Got the train back, scanned out as normal, forgetting I hadn’t purchased new tickets this morning and on the trainline app, the most ‘recent’ ticket is displayed on top so I just autopilot scanned on and went about my evening. So the next time I come into the office, I get on the train to get home. That time I do remember that my ticket isn’t valid anymore but I just think, whatever, it’s Friday, and I’m already on the train now, I’ll buy tickets for next week once I get paid. Inspector/loss prevention officer or what have you checks my ticket, scans it, and says he’s issuing me with a travel incident report because my ticket has been scanned thrice.

Now I’m confused because unless he’s counting his scan, it should’ve only been scanned twice (both times leaving the barrier at Piccadilly). Anyway I’m drafting a reply to the letter I received from Northern with the standard “we are now giving you a chance to give your version of events before we start investigating” etc.

I’ve seen a few posts on here that detail the best way to write an email in response would be to own up, apologise, say it won’t happen again, show what steps you’ve taken to ensure this, say you’ll appreciate that it’s settled out of court, etc. etc.

My thing is, I’ve recently passed my driving test (November) and I am hopefully getting a new car soon after months of saving so shouldn’t have to rely on the trains for much longer anyhow.

Can I get people’s thoughts on the following:

“Dear sirs,

Thank you for your letter dated XX Feb 2024. I would respond as follows:

[Paragraph taking accountability for my oversight].

Rest assured, it was a momentary lapse of judgement and shall not happen again, especially due to the fact that, once I am able to acquire my own car within the next coming weeks, I shall be commuting by driving instead of using the train. As you can see from my purchase history dating back the last year, I have been consistent in obtaining the appropriate tickets for my commute, which I hope stands as testament to the fact that this was indeed a singular mistake on my behalf.

However, I would be happy to pay any administrative cost that you see fit to issue in this regard.

Kind regards,
XXX”

Don't mention the buying a car stuff to them. Not relevant IMHO.

You can end with something like - 'I would be grateful if you would be prepared to settle the matter without the need for court action' if you feel that phrase works in terms of what their letter to you says.

 

[Ajsudh]

Don't mention the buying a car stuff to them. Not relevant IMHO.

You can end with something like - 'I would be grateful if you would be prepared to settle the matter without the need for court action' if you feel that phrase works in terms of what their letter to you says.

Thanks for this. I posted a reply above but it’s saying it’s still awaiting mod approval. I cut some of it down because I don’t know whether it’s because I’m a new user or if it’s too long.

Essentially:

The letter I received from northern said:

“Dear ___

This office acts as the prosecuting authority for Northern Trains Limited.

On Friday 23 February 2024 at 18:03 you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of Railways Regulations. An evidential report has been submitted to this office regarding this incident. Before the company proceeds further with its investigation in respect of this matter, we would like to give you an opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it. Please complete the bottom section of this letter and if you wish to make any comments, please do so on the reverse. Only written mitigation will be accepted.

As you will appreciate, this could be a serious matter; therefore it is imperative that you respond as soon as possible to ascertain the full facts in this matter.”

Thanks so much for the advice you’ve provided, noted. With the tickets that have been changed and cancelled when my colleague has given my a lift to/from, I would always cancel these before the train departed so there wouldn’t have been any chance I would have had the opportunity to hop on a train beforehand. Plus these would’ve been cancelled within the 9-5 hours in which I have never boarded a train since I’ll have been in work. The only other times I have requested a refund will have been if a train was delayed or cancelled.

Would you be able to advise as to how I can rewrite it a little better? With all the above removed, I can’t really think of what else to say.

I am unsure of how else to show the intention that this will never happen again save for mention of getting a car soon and making reference to my purchase history showing that it’s never happened before.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for this. I posted a reply above but it’s saying it’s still awaiting mod approval. I cut some of it down because I don’t know whether it’s because I’m a new user or if it’s too long.

Essentially:

The letter I received from northern said:

“Dear ___

This office acts as the prosecuting authority for Northern Trains Limited.

On Friday 23 February 2024 at 18:03 you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of Railways Regulations. An evidential report has been submitted to this office regarding this incident. Before the company proceeds further with its investigation in respect of this matter, we would like to give you an opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it. Please complete the bottom section of this letter and if you wish to make any comments, please do so on the reverse. Only written mitigation will be accepted.

As you will appreciate, this could be a serious matter; therefore it is imperative that you respond as soon as possible to ascertain the full facts in this matter.”

Thanks so much for the advice you’ve provided, noted. With the tickets that have been changed and cancelled when my colleague has given my a lift to/from, I would always cancel these before the train departed so there wouldn’t have been any chance I would have had the opportunity to hop on a train beforehand. Plus these would’ve been cancelled within the 9-5 hours in which I have never boarded a train since I’ll have been in work. The only other times I have requested a refund will have been if a train was delayed or cancelled.

Would you be able to advise as to how I can rewrite it a little better? With all the above removed, I can’t really think of what else to say.

I am unsure of how else to show the intention that this will never happen again save for mention of getting a car soon and making reference to my purchase history showing that it’s never happened before.

ref your reply - your post won't be too long - it will be due to you being a new user I think so mods may be checking it

ref re wording - see helpful points from @Titfield and maybe this helps if you feel comfortable with some suggested amends

“Dear sirs,

Thank you for your letter dated XX Feb 2024. I would respond as follows:

[Paragraph taking accountability for my oversight]. yes include that stuff with an apology


Please be Rest assured, it was a momentary lapse of judgement and shall not happen again, especially due to the fact that, once I am able to acquire my own car within the next coming weeks, I shall be commuting by driving instead of using the train. As you can see from my purchase history dating back the last year, I have been consistent in obtaining the appropriate tickets for my commute, which I hope stands as testament to the fact that this was an error on this occasion. indeed a singular mistake on my behalf.

I would be grateful if you would be prepared to settle the matter without the need for court action, and I am happy to pay any fare owed.
However, I would be happy to pay any administrative cost that you see fit to issue in this regard.

Kind regards,


Keep an eye on your thread for a day or so if your deadline permits it to see if others have helpful suggestions for amends or other points to make

 

[Haywain]

once I am able to acquire my own car within the next coming weeks, I shall be commuting by driving instead of using the train

I wouldn't say this - it could come across as saying something along the lines of "up yours"!

 

[CarrotPie]

Can I get people’s thoughts on the following:

“Dear sirs,

It's not the 19th century anymore - "Dear Sir/Madam" or "To whom it may concern" work much better these days.

 

[Ajsudh]

I wouldn't say this - it could come across as saying something along the lines of "up yours"!

Oops! Not what I intended at all lol but now that you’ve said that I can see how it comes across like that. I meant it more so as a way to say “this is how i will assure it won’t happen again” but now that you’ve said that, I can see how it might be taken otherwise

It's not the 19th century anymore - "Dear Sir/Madam" or "To whom it may concern" work much better these days.

Ah fair enough. At work I’ve been taught to start formal emails with ‘dear sirs’ and usually receive emails with the same so it’s probably just a matter of habit.

ref your reply - your post won't be too long - it will be due to you being a new user I think so mods may be checking it

ref re wording - see helpful points from @Titfield and maybe this helps if you feel comfortable with some suggested amends

“Dear sirs,

Thank you for your letter dated XX Feb 2024. I would respond as follows:

[Paragraph taking accountability for my oversight]. yes include that stuff with an apology


Please be Rest assured, it was a momentary lapse of judgement and shall not happen again, especially due to the fact that, once I am able to acquire my own car within the next coming weeks, I shall be commuting by driving instead of using the train. As you can see from my purchase history dating back the last year, I have been consistent in obtaining the appropriate tickets for my commute, which I hope stands as testament to the fact that this was an error on this occasion. indeed a singular mistake on my behalf.

I would be grateful if you would be prepared to settle the matter without the need for court action, and I am happy to pay any fare owed.
However, I would be happy to pay any administrative cost that you see fit to issue in this regard.

Kind regards,


Keep an eye on your thread for a day or so if your deadline permits it to see if others have helpful suggestions for amends or other points to make

Thanks for the suggestions, will definitely take them into account

 

[spag23]

The only other times I have requested a refund will have been if a train was delayed or cancelled.

You are not allowed a Refund for a train that has been merely delayed. The graduated DelayRepay process should be used for this.

 

[Ajsudh]

You are not allowed a Refund for a train that has been merely delayed. The graduated DelayRepay process should be used for this.

I’ve always managed to get a partial refund for when a train was delayed by more than 15 mins

 

[AlterEgo]

I’ve always managed to get a partial refund for when a train was delayed by more than 15 mins

I hope you’ve been claiming Delay Repay for this and not just straight up refunding the ticket - you can get in a lot of bother for this.

 

[Townsend Hook]

I’ve always managed to get a partial refund for when a train was delayed by more than 15 mins

Delay repay isn’t technically a refund - its compensation, based on the purchase price of your ticket.

 

[Ajsudh]

Delay repay isn’t technically a refund - its compensation, based on the purchase price of your ticket.

I hope you’ve been claiming Delay Repay for this and not just straight up refunding the ticket - you can get in a lot of bother for this.

Ah well yeah, I’ve been going through delay repay and uploading the necessary PDFs showing my tickets. I would also file through delay repay when trains were cancelled because on the trainline app it charges admin fees even to refund a ticket for a cancelled train so I’ve always assumed delay repay and refunding is one and the same.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ah well yeah, I’ve been going through delay repay and uploading the necessary PDFs showing my tickets. I would also file through delay repay when trains were cancelled because on the trainline app it charges admin fees even to refund a ticket for a cancelled train so I’ve always assumed delay repay and refunding is one and the same.

You can’t claim delay repay if you didn’t travel. No admin fee is charged for a retailer refund owing to disruption. I don’t know how Trainline’s interface works because I don’t use it myself but I’m sure someone here can explain how.

Claiming delay repay when you didn’t travel is also problematic - it does seem confusing but the difference is important and you can get in trouble for claiming delay repay from the train company when you didn’t travel at all.

 

[Ajsudh]

You can’t claim delay repay if you didn’t travel. No admin fee is charged for a retailer refund owing to disruption. I don’t know how Trainline’s interface works because I don’t use it myself but I’m sure someone here can explain how.

Claiming delay repay when you didn’t travel is also problematic - it does seem confusing but the difference is important and you can get in trouble for claiming delay repay from the train company when you didn’t travel at all.

Ah I see then I’m slightly confused. When rail strikes were going on last year there were loads of last minute cancellations for the usual train I get into Manchester after work and I’d have to take an alternative route/operator to get home and would claim for my missed Northern train via delay repay. I hope I’ve not committed any transgressions in this respect (otherwise Northern presumably wouldn’t have refunded me?).

Whenever I have tried refunding a ticket for a cancelled train in advance it did charge an admin fee so I’d go through delay repay, but I’ve now learnt that the refund is only available via the trainline app after the cancelled journey was meant to have finished so the last couple of times cancellations happened due to strikes, I claimed a refund on the app.

Of course, to claim delay repay I’m aware you need to wait until the journey was meant to have finished in the first place but I didn’t realise that doing so on the trainline app after would remove the admin charge also. Is this likely to be something that could be troublesome if/when they check my purchase history do you reckon?

 

[pedr]

If you get to your destination by train, but late, you contact the train company which first caused a delay. The retailer has no role here and you could not contact them or engage with their systems. This is because compensation is due from the company which delayed you.

If a train is cancelled or delayed and you choose not to travel by train at all, you return the tickets to the retailer via whatever system they make available. It’s often better making direct contact by phone or email, rather than using an automated system.

If you begin a rail journey then abandon it the situation is complicated. It may be best to explain exactly what happened and what you did to the retailer and ask them what, if anything, you’re due.

Automatic refund systems are mainly designed to speed up “change of mind” requests, so they usually charge the fee which is applicable to discretionary changes/refunds rather than dealing with journeys which were disrupted. This is convenient but also opens up scope for fraudulently claiming refunds which aren’t due, so should be used with care.

 

[Ajsudh]

If you get to your destination by train, but late, you contact the train company which first caused a delay. The retailer has no role here and you could not contact them or engage with their systems. This is because compensation is due from the company which delayed you.

If a train is cancelled or delayed and you choose not to travel by train at all, you return the tickets to the retailer via whatever system they make available. It’s often better making direct contact by phone or email, rather than using an automated system.

If you begin a rail journey then abandon it the situation is complicated. It may be best to explain exactly what happened and what you did to the retailer and ask them what, if anything, you’re due.

Automatic refund systems are mainly designed to speed up “change of mind” requests, so they usually charge the fee which is applicable to discretionary changes/refunds rather than dealing with journeys which were disrupted. This is convenient but also opens up scope for fraudulently claiming refunds which aren’t due, so should be used with care.

hey, thank you for the detailed reply, that makes much more sense. As far as I know, I should have no issue with fraudulent returns/delay repays should they look at my purchase history. I’ve never hopped on a train only to later request a refund (leaving and entering at Man Piccadilly requires scanning the ticket every time, which I wouldn’t be able to do if I had ever requested a refund on a used ticket). Only instance where I have got my money back would have been in the event of a cancellation or excessive delays, and northern have always compensated the money accordingly.