Travelcard extension to Dorking?

[redreni]

Just looking up fares for a forthcoming trip from Slade Green to Dorking, travelling on a Saturday with a Network Railcard.

tickets.railforums finds both an off-peak return fare and an evening out return fare going via London Bridge and Redhill, which is fine.

It also offers a journey via Canary Wharf with the following tickets:
-Z1-6 travelcard off-peak £9.50
-Purley to Reigate off-peak day return £3.45
-Reigate to Dorking stations off-peak day return £2.60

I wonder why it does that? If I want a travelcard (which I might), why wouldn't the following be valid? (from brfares)
-Z1-6 travelcard £9.50
-Boundary zone 6 to Dorking stations off-peak day return £3.65 (or evening out return £2.95)

I wonder if it's because the journey planner thinks the train has to stop at the boundary station (hence recommending splitting the ticket at Purley rather than Coulsdon South for a journey where the train stops at Purley and then passes Coulsden South without stopping)? It also gives a warning message that you must travel on a train that stops at Purley. That's wrong, of course, because a day travelcard is a zonal ticket and the NRCoT is clear that the train needn't stop at the boundary station in these circumstances.

Before I buy the travelcard with the boundary zone extension I just wanted to check its validity, though. I'm pretty confident it doesn't matter if the train stops at the boundary station or not, but just wanted to check it's okay to go via Redhill on a Boundary zone 6 to Dorking stations ticket?

 

[Watershed]

Just looking up fares for a forthcoming trip from Slade Green to Dorking, travelling on a Saturday with a Network Railcard.

tickets.railforums finds both an off-peak return fare and an evening out return fare going via London Bridge and Redhill, which is fine.

It also offers a journey via Canary Wharf with the following tickets:
-Z1-6 travelcard off-peak £9.50
-Purley to Reigate off-peak day return £3.45
-Reigate to Dorking stations off-peak day return £2.60

I wonder why it does that? If I want a travelcard (which I might), why wouldn't the following be valid?
-Z1-6 travelcard £9.50
-Boundary zone 6 to Dorking stations off-peak day return £3.65 (or evening out return £2.95)

I wonder if it's because the journey planner thinks the train has to stop at the boundary station (hence recommending splitting the ticket at Purley rather than Coulsdon South for a journey where the train stops at Purley and then passes Coulsden South without stopping)? It also gives a warning message that you must travel on a train that stops at Purley. That's wrong, of course, because a day travelcard is a zonal ticket and the NRCoT is clear that the train needn't stop at the boundary station in these circumstances.

Before I buy the travelcard with the boundary zone extension I just wanted to check its validity, though. I'm pretty confident it doesn't matter if the train stops at the boundary station or not, but just wanted to check it's okay to go via Redhill on a Boundary zone 6 to Dorking stations ticket?

TrainSplit doesn't sell non-stop splits, nor does it sell Boundary Zone tickets. In fact, no online retailer does.

Boundary Zone 6 to Dorking Stations tickets are indeed valid via Redhill, so your proposed combination would be the cheapest option for a day trip.

 

[redreni]

TrainSplit doesn't sell non-stop splits, nor does it sell Boundary Zone tickets. In fact, no online retailer does.

Boundary Zone 6 to Dorking Stations tickets are indeed valid via Redhill, so your proposed combination would be the cheapest option for a day trip.

Thanks!

I must say I do worry for trainsplit when it comes to "not selling non-stop splits", as you put it. It's not just that they don't sell them, they specifically tell their customers they're not valid when they are.

If you put in Slade Green to Maidenhead on a Saturday with a Network Railcard, for instance, it offers the split Z16 travelcard plus West-Drayton to Maidenhead off peak day return ticketing option which comes to £14.10 but it tells you your train must stop at West Drayton. This obviously encourages any passenger who is uncomfortable or dissatisfied with that restriction to look for a fare that doesn't have that restriction. They might, for example, turn off the "use split tickets" option and run the search again, which would return a more expensive and much less useful point-to-point return ticket from Slade Green to Maidenhead.

I've seen this bug described on this forum as a "right side failure" in the sense that it errs on the side of not getting passengers penalty-fared or prosecuted. I do not see how that makes it okay to mislead customers and offer them more expensive tickets than they need based on a lie you've told them about validity. It's all very well not to sell certain tickets, but it's the telling people certain tickets are only valid on certain trains when actually they're valid on every train that seems iffy to me...

 

[Benjwri]

I must say I do worry for trainsplit when it comes to "not selling non-stop splits", as you put it. It's not just that they don't sell them, they specifically tell their customers they're not valid when they are.

From what I’ve been told, and someone might able to confirm or deny this, online retailers aren’t allowed to sell boundary zone tickets by RDG, so it isn’t really their fault that it isn’t listed.

As for your accusation that are telling them they’re not valid, and further accusations of lying, they’re not. They are offering you the cheapest ticket their site is able to sell you. They just aren’t saying ‘but if you go to a ticket office and use our splits without giving us you business you can get it cheaper’, in the same way a TVM won’t tell you about splits. It’s the same case as using contactless to cross London, they won’t tell you if it’s cheaper but you’re more than welcome to work it out yourself. At the end of the day they’re a business and I think it’s fair for them not to drive business away from themselves.

you put in Slade Green to Maidenhead on a Saturday with a Network Railcard, for instance, it offers the split Z16 travelcard plus West-Drayton to Maidenhead off peak day return ticketing option which comes to £14.10 but it tells you your train must stop at West Drayton.

It correctly tells you the train must stop in zones 1-6 on the outbound though, so I presume this is a bug, and I’m sure now it’s been brought up it will be fixed.

 

[redreni]

From what I’ve been told, and someone might able to confirm or deny this, online retailers aren’t allowed to sell boundary zone tickets by RDG, so it isn’t really their fault that it isn’t listed.

As for your accusation that are telling them they’re not valid, and further accusations of lying, they’re not. They are offering you the cheapest ticket their site is able to sell you. They just aren’t saying ‘but if you go to a ticket office and use our splits without giving us you business you can get it cheaper’, in the same way a TVM won’t tell you about splits. It’s the same case as using contactless to cross London, they won’t tell you if it’s cheaper but you’re more than welcome to work it out yourself. At the end of the day they’re a business and I think it’s fair for them not to drive business away from themselves.


It correctly tells you the train must stop in zones 1-6 on the outbound though, so I presume this is a bug, and I’m sure now it’s been brought up it will be fixed.

Yes I'm sure it's a bug.

The issue of telling customers a ticket isn't valid is related to but distinct from the boundary zone ticket issue (which surely needs looking at again, incidentally, given the plans the DfT, RDG and TOCs appear to have for ticket offices).

There's no difference in validity or price between a boundary zone 6 to Maidenhead ticket versus a West Drayton to Maidenhead ticket so in this particular example it doesn't matter that online retailers don't sell the former. It matters, however, that they say it's subject to a restriction on its validity that would make it invalid on many trains (including some of those that give the quickest journey times) when it is valid on those trains, because this may well cause the customer to buy a more expensive ticket so as not to be subject to the alleged restriction. On reflection I'm content to assume it's a bug, therefore the misinformation isn't necessarily being given out intentionally, therefore it's not necessarily lying. It depends if they're aware of the issue. Nevertheless it's surely up to the retailer not to give out misinformation?

 

[Adam Williams]

I've seen this bug described on this forum as a "right side failure" in the sense that it errs on the side of not getting passengers penalty-fared or prosecuted. I do not see how that makes it okay to mislead customers and offer them more expensive tickets than they need based on a lie you've told them about validity. It's all very well not to sell certain tickets, but it's the telling people certain tickets are only valid on certain trains when actually they're valid on every train that seems iffy to me...

I'm confident that there was likely no intention to deliberately mislead when that code was written.

Splits involving zonal tickets make up a tiny proportion of the fare sets sold in bookings, and it's the sort of edge case that is easily overlooked when you're writing code to try and help prevent 95% of customers (who really don't understand ticketing) from catching alternative services on their walk-up splits and getting it wrong. Working this out properly is doable, but a bit of a pain - we can work out if the ticket is a zonal travelcard fairly easily, but I'm relatively sure you need to know if the potential split points form part of the validity area of your zonal ticket (i.e. that West Drayton is in Z6 - I'm fairly sure the frontend doesn't know this right now) in line with NRCoT 14.3 before you can safely eliminate it from the list of places the customer must stop at.

It's one to log as a bug in the issue tracker, but it might be that a generic disclaimer gets added in the short-term to say "this list might be inaccurate as you're using a zonal ticket" instead of a more complete fix.

 

[redreni]

I'm confident that there was likely no intention to deliberately mislead when that code was written.

Splits involving zonal tickets make up a tiny proportion of the fare sets sold in bookings, and it's the sort of edge case that is easily overlooked when you're writing code to try and help prevent 95% of customers (who really don't understand ticketing) from catching alternative services on their walk-up splits and getting it wrong. Working this out properly is doable, but a bit of a pain - we can work out if the ticket is a zonal travelcard fairly easily, but I'm relatively sure you need to know if the potential split points form part of the validity area of your zonal ticket (i.e. that West Drayton is in Z6 - I'm fairly sure the frontend doesn't know this right now) in line with NRCoT 14.3 before you can safely eliminate it from the list of places the customer must stop at.

It's one to log as a bug in the issue tracker, but it might be that a generic disclaimer gets added in the short-term to say "this list might be inaccurate as you're using a zonal ticket" instead of a more complete fix.

That sounds very reasonable. Thanks for the response!

It is fascinating learning how these things are coded.

I fear it's actually even more complicated than you've set out, since in order to benefit from the provision in 14.3 that the train does not need to call at the station where you change from a daily zonal ticket to another ticket (or vice versa), the station in question has to be both the last station at which the first ticket is valid and the first station at which the second ticket is valid. I take this to mean that while, for instance, a combination of a z1-6 day travelcard and a day return from Hayes & Harlington to Maidenhead would be valid, 14.3 would not apply because Hayes & Harlington is not the last (or first on the return leg) station at which the travelcard is valid. Consequently the train would have to stop at Hayes & Harlington. I don't know if a situation would ever arise where it would be cheaper to have an overlap in validity like that?

I appreciate it's an issue that would only affect a small minority of split-ticketed journeys, although I note paper travelcards (with extensions as needed) are still very popular with Network Railcard holders in particular because there's no way of associating a Network Railcard with an oyster or contactless card. The issue would also crop up for anyone using a day rover or ranger ticket in combination with a point-to-point single or return ticket, so it's not as if it's a London-only thing. These scenarios could crop up all over the place.

 

[Benjwri]

The issue would also crop up for anyone using a day rover or ranger ticket in combination with a point-to-point single or return ticket, so it's not as if it's a London-only thing

TrainSplit, or any retailer for that case, cannot sell rovers and rangers, and therefore it never needs to know about the non stop splits for this, since as mentioned before it is fair for them not to tell you to buy tickets from a station/TVM

 

[FenMan]

TrainSplit, or any retailer for that case, cannot sell rovers and rangers,

Someone best tell GWR then!

 

[Benjwri]

Someone best tell GWR then!

Only those which are valid on their own network though, as far as I'm aware only TOCs are allowed to sell rovers online.

 

[redreni]

Only those which are valid on their own network though, as far as I'm aware only TOCs are allowed to sell rovers online.

Straying slightly from the topic, perhaps, but to my mind it's a bit distressing that RDG and TOCs continually get away with de-staffing ticket offices and nobody ever puts any pressure on DfT to say "hang on, if you want us to let you close ticket offices or reduce their hours, you've got to get rid of these rules that prevent customers buying the ticket they want online or from a TVM."

You can't vary the point of origin or buy boundary zone tickets from TVMs. You can't buy boundary zone tickets online. You can't buy rangers or rovers online (except maybe from the operator if you're lucky). These restrictions are extremely difficult to justify in and of themselves, but in the absence of ticket offices that are actually open they become outrageous and indefensible.

 

[danm14]

You can't vary the point of origin or buy boundary zone tickets from TVMs

You can on many TVMs - there are options marked "Travelcard extension" and "Tickets from another station" or similar.

 

[Haywain]

as far as I'm aware only TOCs are allowed to sell rovers online.

I don't think there are any such rules. I think it's more to do with wanting to incur the expense of being able to sell them - which would apply equally to third party retailers.

You can't vary the point of origin ... from TVMs.

You can, on a high proportion of TVMs nationally.

You can't ... buy boundary zone tickets from TVMs.

You can, on a large number of TVMs in the London area which have the ability to vary the point of origin. It wouldn't be regarded as a problem across much of the country.

 

[Adam Williams]

I don't think there are any such rules

Rangers like WM1 and DR1 are set-up in RCS to prevent third-party retailers from retailing them. Only TOC licensees can retail such a product.

Furthermore they're restricted to CCST and PRT.

Whether it's supposed to be permanently like this or not (and whether sTicket is supposed to be part of future plans), I don't know. But that's the current state of play.

 

[Haywain]

Rangers like WM1 and DR1 are set-up in RCS to prevent third-party retailers from retailing them. Only TOC licensees can retail such a product.

I had no idea!

Furthermore they're restricted to CCST and PRT.

That, however, doesn't surprise me at all. I don't think there would be much enthusiasm for the sTicket format, but smartcard would be fairly easy. I'm not sure if/how eTicket would work for the 3-in-7 type products but it must be possible too.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think there would be much enthusiasm for the sTicket format

There seems to be little enthusiasm for it for any ticket type, except from Trainline who have boundless enthusiasm for it.

 

[Haywain]

There seems to be little enthusiasm for it for any ticket type, except from Trainline who have boundless enthusiasm for it.

Hmm. I wonder who came up with the idea...

 

[Starmill]

Hmm. I wonder who came up with the idea...

Funny that eh!

 

[_toommm_]

I'm not sure if/how eTicket would work for the 3-in-7 type products but it must be possible too.

Send out three e-tickets. It either needs to be validated on the day by a gate line, or some other reader. Failing that, you could issue them as M-tickets, that need activating for the day of travel.

 

[Haywain]

Failing that, you could issue them as M-tickets, that need activating for the day of travel.

Because mTickets are so popular!

 

[_toommm_]

Because mTickets are so popular!

They’re not, but it’s a workaround for the rovers as it wouldn’t be cost effective to install validators at every station for such niche products, unless we moved to a system where every TOC accepted smartcard tickets.

 

[Haywain]

They’re not, but it’s a workaround for the rovers as it wouldn’t be cost effective to install validators at every station for such niche products, unless we moved to a system where every TOC accepted smartcard tickets.

Who do you propose sells them in mTicket format? As mTickets need to be in an app, that would require a retailer to maintain the supporting app to fulfil those tickets, and that would have cost implications. These are products which, in spite of their popularity on these forums, are not significant earners for retailers.

 

[_toommm_]

Who do you propose sells them in mTicket format? As mTickets need to be in an app, that would require a retailer to maintain the supporting app to fulfil those tickets, and that would have cost implications. These are products which, in spite of their popularity on these forums, are not significant earners for retailers.

National Rail? Thetrainline? They are incredibly niche products, and I acknowledge that, but it’s money into the industry. I’m not going to make a claim of knowing how much an app would cost upfront, nor the annual maintenance cost, but it would be nice to see them continue to be available.

 

[redreni]

You can, on a high proportion of TVMs nationally.

You can, on a large number of TVMs in the London area which have the ability to vary the point of origin. It wouldn't be regarded as a problem across much of the country.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware. As it happens you can't vary the point of origin at TVMs at any of the stations I pass through on my way to/from the office, but it's useful to know Southeastern now allows its TVMs to sell post-dated tickets.

I hope appropriate pressure will be brought to bear on TOCs to remove the remaining restrictions before they are allowed to go any further with ticket office closures.