Travelling "short" where permitted route takes you via a higher-priced destination

[ocelocelot]

As far as I can tell from the official Journey Planner, the following is a valid route for Cambridge - Wymondham:

Cambridge - Stowmarket - Norwich - Wymondham

However, many tickets allow a break of journey; what happens if I get off at Norwich and then just abandon the journey?

The ticket price from Cambridge to Norwich is higher than from Cambridge to Wymondham, so it must surely be at least naughty to do this? (Not actually planning to do this, I was just curious!

 

[Paul Kelly]

The fare to Norwich is only more expensive because of post-privatisation fare gouging; at privatisation, the price to both stations was the same, and this is why the route is permitted. So there's nothing really untoward or anomalous going on here. And none of the fares from Cambridge to Wymondham have any break of journey restrictions, so it's perfectly fine to stop short at Norwich.

 

[yorkie]

Firstly, the title of this thread will act like a magnet for pricing managers!

As far as I can tell from the official Journey Planner, the following is a valid route for Cambridge - Wymondham:

There is more than one accredited journey planner but I guess you mean National Rail Enquiries.

Cambridge - Stowmarket - Norwich - Wymondham

Yes it is permitted; it was valid under British Rail's "reasonableness" test and this validity has continued into privatisation; it would require Department for Transport (DfT) approval to remove it.

However if Greater Anglia were to state they believe they can get a better deal for taxpayers if passengers travelling to Norwich pay higher fares, and if Greater Anglia are concerned that people travelling to Norwich may buy tickets that do not cost as much as the train company wants people to pay, I can see the DfT agreeing to the current "Any Permitted" fare being re-routed to be a more restrictive route (eg. "Not via Norwich" or "via Ely"), and a higher priced "via Norwich" fare introduced.

We have seen this before; the InterCity East Coast franchise successfully obtained DfT permission to charge a premium for taking the shortest route between Darton & Doncaster. In order to pay the reasonable fare, passengers now have to take a slow detour via Meadowhall.

Make no mistake: the train companies want us to pay through the nose for popular journeys in high demand and the DfT is more than happy to facilitate this. The DfT is not on our side at all, and are happy to inconvenience customers.

However, many tickets allow a break of journey; what happens if I get off at Norwich and then just abandon the journey?

Nothing.

The ticket price from Cambridge to Norwich is higher than from Cambridge to Wymondham, so it must surely be at least naughty to do this? (Not actually planning to do this, I was just curious!

It could be seen as "naughty" but it is permitted. Someone may equally argue that the relevant franchise holder(s) who disproportionately increased the fare to Norwich were "naughty".

For example, is it "naughty" that TPE have massively increased the price of Leeds to Manchester fares? Or is it "naughty" if I buy a ticket to somewhere beyond Manchester that is cheaper? Or are both parties "naughty"? At the end of the day, train companies generally have the permission (and blessing) of the DfT to set certain journeys as very expensive, while passengers have the right to buy cheaper fares and start/finish "short".

It's a game of cat and mouse at times and revealing good value fares to pricing managers isn't a good tactic! Getting yourself to a fares workshop might be!

I know this game, it's called cat and mouse. And there's only one way to win, don't be the mouse

 

[SSp]

Isn't it time for a Preston to London peak discussion for our Lancaster residents...

 

[Merseysider]

Isn't it time for a Preston to London peak discussion for our Lancaster residents...

No.

That discussion rears its ugly head almost weekly.

 

[ian1944]

Given that the Cambridge to Wymondham via Norwich case is now public, there's no further harm in discussing it. So I was wondering if TrainSplit (for example), whose primary aim is fare reduction by splitting but has a general aim of providing the cheapest fare, would be able to advise Cambridge to Norwich passengers to book to Wymondham but stop short. I don't mean able in the ethical sense, but whether their algorithms are smart enough to look for truncation rather than splitting.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I imagine that building a search engine to find cheaper fares by starting or finishing short would be many orders of magnitude more difficult than one to find split tickets! Just imagine the number of fares you'd have to check for each journey. I don't know if anyone has tried but, so far, no one has succeeded.

 

[hawk1911]

It's a game of cat and mouse at times and revealing good value fares to pricing managers isn't a good tactic! Getting yourself to a fares workshop might be!

I've been ticket splitting and travelling short on tickets since at least the 1980s and the amount of legitimate loopholes have never seemed to be greater than today, partly due to ease of been able to check tickets/routes online.

I am very aware of the dangers of advertising some of the better loopholes, as I have learnt, from experience, that they can soon be closed down.

One example was that Stafford to Rugeley Town was at one time valid either via Rugeley Trent Valley or Birmingham New Street, allowing people to travel from Stafford to Birmingham at one third of the 'normal' price. Widespread use and advertising (in the Stafford area), of this loophole, ensured it was shut down.

The result is that most of us now keep the really good loopholes to ourselves (and friends via word of mouth), meaning that, undoubtedly, we miss some that others are aware of.

But better to have some loopholes to use than be aware of them all, only to see them all disappear very quickly.

 

[robbeech]

One would also assume that it would be a service that aforementioned pricing managers would make good use of and all of these would be cleared up as quickly as they could be entered into the search box.

 

[methethpropbut]

I can see the DfT agreeing to the current "Any Permitted" fare being re-routed to be a more restrictive route (eg. "Not via Norwich" or "via Ely"), and a higher priced "via Norwich" fare introduced.

Route: Direct?

Also I'd have thought that the fare would only be valid Cambridge-Stowmarket-Norwich-Wymondham, but a quick search on NRE seems to suggest... well, otherwise. This is interesting...

 

[Joe Paxton]

One would also assume that it would be a service that aforementioned pricing managers would make good use of and all of these would be cleared up as quickly as they could be entered into the search box.

I wouldn't be totally surprised to hear of some kinds of automated 'fare discrepancy finder' tools at work behind the scenes somewhere in the industry... but that said it's a complicated job, and the industry is fragmented and the different bits of it pull in different directions (though even if it wasn't fragmented, there'd still be some of the same frictions given the various differing priorities and motivations at play).

 

[yorkie]

Given that the Cambridge to Wymondham via Norwich case is now public, there's no further harm in discussing it.

One of my favourite tickets cropped up once but was soon buried; not all reports are acted upon. But of course if they are bumped up, they are more likely to be

So I was wondering if TrainSplit (for example), whose primary aim is fare reduction by splitting but has a general aim of providing the cheapest fare, would be able to advise Cambridge to Norwich passengers to book to Wymondham but stop short. I don't mean able in the ethical sense, but whether their algorithms are smart enough to look for truncation rather than splitting.

Such algorithms have been created but I can't ever see this being released to the public. I am sure ATOC would not want it, and it would cause a huge arms race, and chaos.

 

[yorkie]

The result is that most of us now keep the really good loopholes to ourselves (and friends via word of mouth), meaning that, undoubtedly, we miss some that others are aware of.

But better to have some loopholes to use than be aware of them all, only to see them all disappear very quickly.

I completely agree, but not everyone does.

Get yourself to a fares workshop or forum meal!

 

[yorkie]

I wouldn't be totally surprised to hear of some kinds of automated 'fare discrepancy finder' tools at work behind the scenes somewhere in the industry... but that said it's a complicated job, and the industry is fragmented and the different bits of it pull in different directions (though even if it wasn't fragmented, there'd still be some of the same frictions given the various differing priorities and motivations at play).

Don't give them ideas TOCs do not have the budget or expertise for this, in all honesty.

With certain TOCs they can't even manage basic stuff, like simply setting a straightforward fare!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

It could be seen as "naughty" but it is permitted. Someone may equally argue that the relevant franchise holder(s) who disproportionately increased the fare to Norwich were "naughty".

In my (average person who knows a bit about trains) view, there is nothing "naughty" about doing this, it is a perfectly legitimate use of the train fare and break of journey regulation.

No different to when, for example, it is cheaper to buy a multipack of 4 Coke Cans than to but two individual ones and you just throw the other two away. You are paying the correct price set by the company and using as much of it as you want.

I would consider it only "naughty" if you were deliberately using an invalid route, knowing that you were unlikely to be caught or could blag your way out of it.

 

[gingerheid]

And sometimes they close loopholes so crudely

The last time I checked (years after they closed Cambridge to Ipswich (via London))... you still couldn't get any fare off the website for perfectly reasonable Cambridge Ely Ipswich journeys, or a Cambridge Ipswich season ticket.

There are now also times of day when the trains you can get fares from Cambridge North to Ipswich on take 30 mins longer than ones where you can't!

 

[Deafdoggie]

Just use these things whilst you can. As fast as some are shut, others open up, including accidental. For a while I found (for no apparent reason, so I guess just an error) that it was cheaper to book North bound journeys from Longport instead of Stoke! So I did, nothing wrong with it. The error got corrected after around 18 months! But I used it whilst I could

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The best one was a few years ago where briefly, Any Permitted fares from certain South Yorkshire stations to certain Kent stations were priced at something like £8.50! I enjoyed two trips to London for peanuts as a result, even used HS1 to Strood in order to chalk off the track and so that I was still getting everything I'd paid for ("you can take the man out of Yorkshire...").

The only downside was the gateline attendant at the EMT platforms at St. Pancras who refused to accept that the ticket was genuine. Understandable given the price, but her conduct made me wonder if she was a graduate of the Blackpool North Training Academy! She ended up costing her company the cost of a taxi from Sheffield Midland to Denby Dale!

 

[185143]

One of my favourite tickets cropped up once but was soon buried; not all reports are acted upon. But of course if they are bumped up, they are more likely to be Such algorithms have been created but I can't ever see this being released to the public. I am sure ATOC would not want it, and it would cause a huge arms race, and chaos.

Was that the one we had a discussion about a large number of forum members using at yesterday's fares workshop? Or the one that was valid between 2 stations in the Midlands via much of Southern England

 

[rg177]

Indeed there's a certain ticket that gets me across the Hope Valley for around half the price of the usual fare through starting and stopping short, and as a student with little spare cash, i'm hoping nobody senior picks up on it