Travelling to Peterborough holding a Derby to London season. Extra ticket from where?

[Qwertychops]

I think I know the answer, but give the complexities of fares and routing I thought getting comfirmation from the forum would help.

I have to travel to Peterborough next week, mid week and be there around 0900 / 0930 hrs

I’m travelling from Derby, and already have a season ticket to any London station , any permitted route, I would like to utilise this the best I can. The only and obvious option I can see is to use this to get me to Leicester and then travel on a separate purchased ticket from
Leicester to Peterborough, are there any other options open to get closer to Peterborough on my season ticket, without excessively extending my journey time?

Thanks

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Map NM permits you to go as far as Oakham on the way to London, presumably to permit use of the extremely infrequent Oakham-Corby services. So you only need a ticket from Oakham.

 

[Qwertychops]

Thanks for your reply, as a belt and brace type of guy, I thought I’d give national rail enquiry line a call to confirm, they said I would have to purchase a ticket from Leicester to Peterborough.
If I were to screenshot the link you sent and the diagram would this be. Sufficient to cover me with any ticket inspection from train managers ?

Again, many thanks

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks for your reply, as a belt and brace type of guy, I thought I’d give national rail enquiry line a call to confirm, they said I would have to purchase a ticket from Leicester to Peterborough.
If I were to screenshot the link you sent and the diagram would this be. Sufficient to cover me with any ticket inspection from train managers ?

Again, many thanks

Calling NRE, or indeed asking any "ordinary" member of staff, is just about the worst way possible to find out the true validity of a ticket. The system is far too complex for any of them to understand it properly.

There is nothing to "cover" - you might like to have a screenshot if you really want - but ultimately if a train manager (actually likely to be a Senior Conductor on that route) feels like tortiously demanding (some might even say extorting) additional sums then I doubt a screenshot will convince them that your ticket is valid. After all, they could say that you've just made it up.

This being said, I don't think there will be any problems using your ticket along this route. It's far from unreasonable.

 

[Qwertychops]

Again thanks for the above, I’ll give feedback of my experience.
It’s a big saving being able to start the second leg of my journey from Oakham

 

[Adlington]

Calling NRE, or indeed asking any "ordinary" member of staff, is just about the worst way possible to find out the true validity of a ticket. The system is far too complex for any of them to understand it properly.

So who do I ask if I want an authoritative answer?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So who do I ask if I want an authoritative answer?

Here on the forum!

 

[Adlington]

I've been half expecting this answer.... But will an ignorant guard (or another railway official who can prevent you from entering/leaving the platform, or make a non-negotiable request for a penalty fare) be ready to change his/her mind by a glimpse of an enlightened advice in this expert forum?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I've been half expecting this answer.... But will an ignorant guard (or another railway official who can prevent you from entering/leaving the platform, or make a non-negotiable request for a penalty fare) be ready to change his/her mind by a glimpse of an enlightened advice in this expert forum?

No, the forum is not for presenting to members of staff. There can be no suggestion that it will be taken as believable "evidence" of the answer to a particular question. But it will give you the factually correct answer.

And if a member of staff is so wrong that they don't know the rules but won't accept otherwise, I hardly think an email or letter on company headed paper is going to change their mind.

The best way of dealing with such situations is likely to be to appear to accept and cooperate with what they are saying or asking, and then to pursue it (vigorously) afterwards.

 

[RJ]

So who do I ask if I want an authoritative answer?

That's a question the railway industry would rather you didn't ask. National Rail Enquiries works if you're doing your journey all at once by the fastest route on one ticket, but you're filed into the problem category if you wish to do anything more complicated than that.

That said in most cases you'll be fine as in reality, most guards operate on an "any reasonable route" principle. The chances are fairly low of anyone arguing with use of a Derby to London season to get as far as Oakham.

 

[kieron]

If you already know the answer and are just looking for evidence, the National Rail (or NRE) web site isn't too bad.

I found out when trains actually go through Corby, and then asked the site for a London-Derby journey via Corby but not Leicester. The first result in each direction should give reasonably strong evidence that a Derby-London season ticket may be used to travel via Oakham, if you're in a position to show it to staff. Essentially, you're using this ticket to make this journey because an official rail industry web site said you could.

One problem I should mention with following links to NRE is that it saves via points in cookies, and can add these via points in when you request a different journey altogether. Deleting any cookies for the site and then opening the link is one way to avoid this.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Calling NRE, or indeed asking any "ordinary" member of staff, is just about the worst way possible to find out the true validity of a ticket. The system is far too complex for any of them to understand it properly.

An unnecessarily sweeping statement. Replace "any of them" with "the vast majority of them" and you would have been making a fair comment. As for the complexity we have regularly concluded here that any genuine simplification would result in both winners and losers but a significant proportion of FMs would find themselves in the latter category.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

An unnecessarily sweeping statement. Replace "any of them" with "the vast majority of them" and you would have been making a fair comment. As for the complexity we have regularly concluded here that any genuine simplification would result in both winners and losers but a significant proportion of FMs would find themselves in the latter category.

I don't think there is a single person in the entire world who properly and fully understands how the ticketing system actually works - not even the people at ATOC who designed it. There are simply too many variables and uncertainties in it for that to be the case.

I agree that simplification will no doubt lead to winners and losers. Whilst it would be a shame if the forum members have to pay more, if that is the cost of simplification then so be it. I have alternatives to travelling by train if it gets too expensive for what I consider reasonable.

 

[Qwertychops]

Thanks to whoever changed the title of this thread, and for the replies given so far, regardless of what is allowed or not from my op, my observations of rail travel and ticketing are:
Ticket office staff are great
Train staff (Manager, seniors, catering et al)
Drivers
Are great doing a difficult job in difficult circumstances

I’ve have absolutely no doubt when doing my trip next week who ever asks to check my ticket will allow me to travel with my ticket combination

What really difficult to understand is why it’s so difficult to get a definitive answer to a simple question

I personally don’t have any issues with the ‘on train / station’ staff making the right decision when presented with strange or non standard ticking scenarios

 

[RJ]

What really difficult to understand is why it’s so difficult to get a definitive answer to a simple question

I personally don’t have any issues with the ‘on train / station’ staff making the right decision when presented with strange or non standard ticking scenarios

Determining permitted routes is seen within the industry as a specialist technical skill. This is because it requires some proficiency in piecing lots of bits of information together to reach a final conclusion. This isn't something that the railways train staff working in retail are required to learn and some TOCs say they don't have a single person on their books who can do that.

There's no incentive to teach staff either because if you are trying to find out what your ticket entitles you to, it means you are trying to increase the value you're getting from that ticket. The routing/splitting/break of journey rights are there and the information is made available to those who want to find it, but it's not a priority of the industry to outwardly assist people with making use of them to save money. People with a value seeking personality trait are more likely to find and use those rights, or question what their ticket entitles them to. The majority simply cannot be asked - and the likes of the journey planners shoehorn people into planning trips that must be completed in one go by the fastest route.

That said, there are some TOC staff who work in ticket offices and on the trains who teach themselves how to check permitted routes, but identifying them is like finding a needle in a haystack.

With regards to what ticket checking staff will do when presented with a non standard ticketing scenario, that's another topic in itself. My opinion is you won't have any problems with the combination you are intending to use in this case. The Senior Conductors on the Oakham line all seem to be a friendly and experienced bunch. The problems only really kick off on high speed intercity services!

 

[yorkie]

So who do I ask if I want an authoritative answer?

Ask on this forum if you want a correct answer, but read on if you want something to show to staff...

... But will an ignorant guard (or another railway official who can prevent you from entering/leaving the platform, or make a non-negotiable request for a penalty fare) be ready to change his/her mind by a glimpse of an enlightened advice in this expert forum?

I would advise against that.

Although not of much use in the case of this specific query regarding use of a pre-existing Season ticket, as a general rule I would advise buying from a website which will produce the itinerary you require, and showing that itinerary to staff if questioned; the itinerary should be treated as 'authoritative'

If you are charged incorrectly, a refund and apology can be sought from the company making the incorrect charge. A good retailer will back you up in the event of a dispute.

Determining permitted routes is seen within the industry as a specialist technical skill....

This is all absolutely true, though I'll point out that determining permitted routes is done electronically by booking engines, and customers are not expected to understand how this is done.

Of course, as with any such system, there are people who understand the underlying rules which the computerised systems are applying, and we do have people on this forum who are knowledgeable on this subject.

The validity of this particular ticket via Oakham can be demonstrated by doing a dummy booking searching for London St Pancras to Derby via Oakham departing at 0749 (those of us with access to diagnostics can see the route is 143.25 miles long and is valid on map NM)

 

[Belperpete]

A season ticket from Derby to London allows you to travel to or from any intermediate station (such as Loughborough, Leicester, etc.). If you travel from Derby to London you are permitted to travel via Beeston, so therefore a Derby to London season should allow you to travel between Derby and Beeston, and Beeston and London. From Beeston to London, you are permitted to travel via Leicester, or via Grantham and Peterborough. So surely a Derby to London season should be valid via Beeston and Grantham/Peterborough? I have certainly had the EMT journey planner sell me a ticket from Belper to London with an itinerary via Grantham in the past. I took a copy of the itinerary with me in case anyone queried my ticket, but no-one did, including when I broke journey at Peterborough, and at the barrier at KX.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

A season ticket from Derby to London allows you to travel to or from any intermediate station (such as Loughborough, Leicester, etc.). If you travel from Derby to London you are permitted to travel via Beeston, so therefore a Derby to London season should allow you to travel between Derby and Beeston, and Beeston and London. From Beeston to London, you are permitted to travel via Leicester, or via Grantham and Peterborough. So surely a Derby to London season should be valid via Beeston and Grantham/Peterborough? I have certainly had the EMT journey planner sell me a ticket from Belper to London with an itinerary via Grantham in the past. I took a copy of the itinerary with me in case anyone queried my ticket, but no-one did, including when I broke journey at Peterborough, and at the barrier at KX.

Unfortunately that isn't how the system works. The only time you can use the validity of an intermediate point along the journey in the way you are suggesting, is if you have a ticket which is routed 'via' somewhere. I suggest you read the Routeing Guide Instructions and the Routeing Guide In Detail for more information, or alternatively that you attend one of the forum's Fares Workshops if you'd like to find out more.

 

[sheff1]

... some TOCs say they don't have a single person on their books who can do that.

So some TOCs are saying (publicly ?) that they are not complying with the NRCoT (and, quite possibly, Consumer legislation) and also have no intention of doing so ?

 

[Adlington]

I suggest you read the Routeing Guide Instructions and the Routeing Guide In Detail for more information, or alternatively that you attend one of the forum's Fares Workshops if you'd like to find out more.

Shouldn't this reading list and workshop be made compulsory for all potential rail users? With a written exam at the end, obviously.

 

[maniacmartin]

A season ticket from Derby to London allows you to travel to or from any intermediate station (such as Loughborough, Leicester, etc.). If you travel from Derby to London you are permitted to travel via Beeston, so therefore a Derby to London season should allow you to travel between Derby and Beeston, and Beeston and London. From Beeston to London, you are permitted to travel via Leicester, or via Grantham and Peterborough. So surely a Derby to London season should be valid via Beeston and Grantham/Peterborough? [...]

It hasn't worked that way since before privatization sadly.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Shouldn't this reading list and workshop be made compulsory for all potential rail users? With a written exam at the end, obviously.

For those who have complicated journey requirements and yet don't want to be ripped off into buying an All Line Rover or something, yes, understanding of the Routeing Guide is very useful!

I would support at least having basic training on the Routeing Guide for all staff who interact with tickets - it could be taught in the same way the basics of data protection no doubt are.

 

[sheff1]

I would support at least having basic training on the Routeing Guide for all staff who interact with tickets

Making sure all such staff knew that the Routeing Guide (and NRCoT) existed and applied to their TOC would be an advance !

 

[RJ]

Shouldn't this reading list and workshop be made compulsory for all potential rail users? With a written exam at the end, obviously.

Only the people who want to save money learn how the system works. A lot of customers waste money because they do things like buy a seperate ticket for each leg of their journey, or for every break of journey or change of trains because nobody has told them taught them about the concept of through tickets. Others buy a Zone 1-6 Travelcard, then use Oyster or Contactless to get around Central London.

People complain about fares but are not interested in getting better value for money. Some take the view they shouldn't have to jump through those hoops go get a better deal - but the rights are there to be used and others can and will make use of them.

 

[robbeech]

I know several guards that would consider Derby to London via Peterborough to be more than reasonable. I would consider it reasonable. Sadly it doesn’t change things so you should take the advice with the Oakham ticket. It’s very unlikely you’ll have any issues.

 

[Haywain]

I know several guards that would consider Derby to London via Peterborough to be more than reasonable. I would consider it reasonable. Sadly it doesn’t change things so you should take the advice with the Oakham ticket. It’s very unlikely you’ll have any issues.

Some guards may well consider the route reasonable but the question is whether it is permitted, which is a different matter.

 

[Belperpete]

I wish that I had kept the itinerary for my Derby to London via Grantham ticket, because when I wanted to make exactly the same journey again I couldn't get the journey planner to give me that routing. This is one of the big problems in my view: you can buy a ticket with a valid route/itinerary one day, and the next day/week/month you can buy exactly the same ticket but that route/itinerary is no longer valid because the routing guide has been amended. As RDG don't publicise the changes, how is Joe public supposed to know that his ticket is no longer valid on that route? In a different case, I was specifically advised by the booking office that a particular routing was valid, they gave me a copy of the easement that permits it, and I have made that journey for many, many years (as it is often the quickest way of making the journey on Sundays) without my ticket ever being rejected. It was only when I happened by chance to find that the journey planner wasn't offering that routing any more, and looked into it further, that I found that particular easement had been revoked some time in the past!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I wish that I had kept the itinerary for my Derby to London via Grantham ticket, because when I wanted to make exactly the same journey again I couldn't get the journey planner to give me that routing. This is one of the big problems in my view: you can buy a ticket with a valid route/itinerary one day, and the next day/week/month you can buy exactly the same ticket but that route/itinerary is no longer valid because the routing guide has been amended. As RDG don't publicise the changes, how is Joe public supposed to know that his ticket is no longer valid on that route? In a different case, I was specifically advised by the booking office that a particular routing was valid, they gave me a copy of the easement that permits it, and I have made that journey for many, many years (as it is often the quickest way of making the journey on Sundays) without my ticket ever being rejected. It was only when I happened by chance to find that the journey planner wasn't offering that routing any more, and looked into it further, that I found that particular easement had been revoked some time in the past!

You shouldn't rely on 'unusual' routes without checking them each time you buy your ticket - unfortunately that's the only safe way of doing things!

 

[Belperpete]

Unfortunately that isn't how the system works. The only time you can use the validity of an intermediate point along the journey in the way you are suggesting, is if you have a ticket which is routed 'via' somewhere. I suggest you read the Routeing Guide Instructions and the Routeing Guide In Detail for more information, or alternatively that you attend one of the forum's Fares Workshops if you'd like to find out more.

If I understand it correctly, a Derby to London ticket allows you to travel from Beeston to London, but only via Leicester not Grantham. So couldn't someone who wished to travel via Grantham do so by paying the excess? As I understand the NCoT, you are allowed to pay a route excess on the train, you don't have to purchase it before boarding. And as the cost of a Beeston to London ticket via Grantham is the same price as a ticket via Leicester, it should surely be a zero-cost excess?

 

[higthomas]

If I understand it correctly, a Derby to London ticket allows you to travel from Beeston to London, but only via Leicester not Grantham. So couldn't someone who wished to travel via Grantham do so by paying the excess? As I understand the NCoT, you are allowed to pay a route excess on the train, you don't have to purchase it before boarding. And as the cost of a Beeston to London ticket via Grantham is the same price as a ticket via Leicester, it should surely be a zero-cost excess?

But you hold a derby to london ticket. That's the important bit.