Triple Competition in Spain

[LNW-GW Joint]

With the launch of Iryo on November 25, there are now three high-speed operators on the Madrid-Barcelona run - Renfe, Ouigo and Iryo.
Triple competition between these operators will also reach Valencia, Alacant, Malaga and Seville next year.

Renfe is obviously the incumbent Spanish state-owned operator, with its AVE mix of high-speed trains of TGV, ICE, Talgo and CAF design origin, offering a full service mix.
Renfe also has a low-cost service branded Avlo, using Talgo AVE sets.
Ouigo is a subsidiary of France's SNCF, and operates double-deck TGV Duplex trains under its Ouigo low-cost model.
Iryo is a Spanish-Italian operator with a strong (45%) Trenitalia flavour, operating Hitachi Zefiro V300 trains similar to TI's Frecciarossa 1000 in Italy.
Iryo's business model looks to be more upmarket than Ouigo, with a wide range of service options.
The new operators have both gone for brand-new full-size trains, 14-20 sets leased over 20 years or so, so they are in it for the long haul.
There are similarities between the Avlo/Ouigo/Iryo models and low-cost airlines, with cheap restricted lead-in fares plus a wide range of optional add-ons (seat selection, luggage, flexible tickets etc).

The Spanish government offered bundles of paths on its high speed lines at commercial rates.
Renfe appears to operate about every 2 hours, with Avlo services running about 4 times a day.
Iryo will run every 2 hours. Ouigo is operating somewhat less frequently at 3-4 hour intervals.
Renfe can operate through services beyond the high speed lines (eg to places like Cadiz, Santander, Irun) using dual gauge stock on the classic network, but the new operators will be limited to standard gauge lines.

The Spanish standard gauge high-speed network is now 30 years old, and has grown steadily since the first AVE line (Madrid-Seville) was opened
It has a lot of spare capacity which this policy will utilise.
The GB high-speed network is hardly comparable, but HMG doesn't appear to be considering multiple operators on HS2, even on the London-Birmingham captive high speed section.

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This is the Railway Gazette piece on Iryo:

Iryo brings Italian style to Spanish high speed rail services

With Iryo preparing to launch its first high speed rail services this week, Mike Bent reports from a preview service between Madrid and València

www.railwaygazette.com

Commercial services from Madrid to Cuenca and València are scheduled to follow on December 16, with trains from Madrid to Córdoba, Málaga and Sevilla starting on March 31 next year and to Albacete and Alacant from June 2.
Iryo’s entry to the Spanish high speed market represents an investment of €800m. Once fully operational the brand will account for 30% of all high speed services in Spain, and its backers expect to carry 8 million passengers/year.
Iryo is run by Operador Ferroviario de Levante, which is now 45% owned by Italian national operator Trenitalia, 31% by València-based Air Nostrum and 24% by infrastructure investment and management group Globalvia.

 

[Watershed]

With the launch of Iryo on November 25, there are now three high-speed operators on the Madrid-Barcelona run - Renfe, Ouigo and Iryo.
Triple competition between these operators will also reach Valencia, Alacant, Malaga and Seville next year.

Renfe is obviously the incumbent Spanish state-owned operator, with its AVE mix of high-speed trains of TGV, ICE, Talgo and CAF design origin, offering a full service mix.
Renfe also has a low-cost service branded Avlo, using Talgo AVE sets.
Ouigo is a subsidiary of France's SNCF, and operates double-deck TGV Duplex trains under its Ouigo low-cost model.
Iryo is a Spanish-Italian operator with a strong (45%) Trenitalia flavour, operating Hitachi Zefiro V300 trains similar to TI's Frecciarossa 1000 in Italy.
Iryo's business model looks to be more upmarket than Ouigo, with a wide range of service options.
The new operators have both gone for brand-new full-size trains, 14-20 sets leased over 20 years or so, so they are in it for the long haul.
There are similarities between the Avlo/Ouigo/Iryo models and low-cost airlines, with cheap restricted lead-in fares plus a wide range of optional add-ons (seat selection, luggage, flexible tickets etc).

The Spanish government offered bundles of paths on its high speed lines at commercial rates.
Renfe appears to operate about every 2 hours, with Avlo services running about 4 times a day.
Iryo will run every 2 hours. Ouigo is operating somewhat less frequently at 3-4 hour intervals.
Renfe can operate through services beyond the high speed lines (eg to places like Cadiz, Santander, Irun) using dual gauge stock on the classic network, but the new operators will be limited to standard gauge lines.

The Spanish standard gauge high-speed network is now 30 years old, and has grown steadily since the first AVE line (Madrid-Seville) was opened
It has a lot of spare capacity which this policy will utilise.
The GB high-speed network is hardly comparable, but HMG doesn't appear to be considering multiple operators on HS2, even on the London-Birmingham captive high speed section.

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This is the Railway Gazette piece on Iryo:

Iryo brings Italian style to Spanish high speed rail services

With Iryo preparing to launch its first high speed rail services this week, Mike Bent reports from a preview service between Madrid and València

www.railwaygazette.com

It's disappointing that there's no such competition for Eurostar. I'm not a huge fan of rail-on-rail competition, but they have a rather cosy position as things stand.

 

[MarcVD]

It's disappointing that there's no such competition for Eurostar. I'm not a huge fan of rail-on-rail competition, but they have a rather cosy position as things stand.

The same can be said about Thalys between Paris and Brussels.

 

[Austriantrain]

It's disappointing that there's no such competition for Eurostar. I'm not a huge fan of rail-on-rail competition, but they have a rather cosy position as things stand.

Nor am I, but if an operator does such a crap job as RENFE is doing, they deserve all the competition they can get. E* seems to be similar; however, it is probably much more difficult to make money there (due to the high costs of channel tunnel and HS1 operations plus border and custom issues) than in Spain.

 

[AdamWW]

Nor am I, but if an operator does such a crap job as RENFE is doing, they deserve all the competition they can get. E* seems to be similar; however, it is probably much more difficult to make money there (due to the high costs of channel tunnel and HS1 operations plus border and custom issues) than in Spain.

Spain seems to be ideal for the idea of trying to operate an airline style competitive market on the railways - a fairly wide (and self contained) high speed network with plenty of capacity.

I don't know to what extent (if at all) RENFE is using their high speed services to cross-subsidise what's left of the conventional network and what the implications of losing market share might be.

One advantage RENFE have in principle over the other operators is much greater ability to sell through tickets but they seem somewhat reluctant to do so. And even where they do, connections between and onto high speed services have to allow for the time to get through security. (At least from what I've seen, where arriving passengers end up outside the "secure" departure area and have go back through security to catch another train).

From what I've seen, the Spanish railways are unlike anything else in Europe.

 

[dutchflyer]

RENFE does not sell any kind of transfertickets-only on AVE/Hi-speed tix you can get at both sides, if there is, a free trip on the cercanias= S-bahn style local network-in that cityzone or just around. But even that is sometimes curbed as it has to be loaded on a chipcard, which takes some 4-6 week to produce and hence is out of use for any visitor. This depends on how the fares work in that network. On gets a separate ticket for each trip made-though there are a very few ´garanteed´ connections as such. But RENFE has some grip on steady customers by its many railcards (like for seniors from anywhere for just 6€/yr).
Usually one sees traffic grow a lot when these newer hi-speed lines open-but Spains oldest-at that time for the World Fair/exhibition in Sevilla still only has an hourly basis service, though new branches off this line- to Malaga and most recent to Granada bring it a few more trains-but both these lines not even hourly.
I get the feeling, but have never seen any figures, that AVE barely makes money and that all other more basic lines are subsidized, though not overly much.
Yes, it is indeed a rather strange fish in the pool of EUR railways-but some in eastern Europe-still use the old-style Russky system which works also about the same. And look at the fragmentation of Polish trains-forcing you maybe to also buy 3 -4 separate tickets for even a short trip but with that nr of changes.

 

[AdamWW]

RENFE does not sell any kind of transfertickets-only on AVE/Hi-speed tix you can get at both sides,

I have never actually bought one so maybe it would fails later in the process, but the RENFE web site offers prices for journeys involving changing between MD or LD and an AVE train as well as between AVE trains. It doesn't make it at all obvious that there is a change of trains, but the train type is shown for example as MD-AVE or AVE-AVE rather than just AVE.

On gets a separate ticket for each trip made-though there are a very few ´garanteed´ connections as such.

I did see an offical RENFE blog page which said that they will take responsibility for missed connections on separate tickets so long as you leave at least an hour between trains. If it is true, though, it appears to be a well kept secret.

I get the feeling, but have never seen any figures, that AVE barely makes money and that all other more basic lines are subsidized, though not overly much.

I'm impressed if they can manage without much subsidy, given that a station with 6 trains a day each way somehow seems to support a manned ticket office, stationmaster, security guard and various other hangers on, not to mention double manned cabs on long distance trains passing through.

Yes, it is indeed a rather strange fish in the pool of EUR railways-but some in eastern Europe-still use the old-style Russky system which works also about the same. And look at the fragmentation of Polish trains-forcing you maybe to also buy 3 -4 separate tickets for even a short trip but with that nr of changes.

You can certainly see aspects of the Spanish railways in other countries.

But I haven't come across any other country that appears to have pretty much abandoned the idea of posessing a railway network other than in the purely physical sense. Even with the free Cercanias travel with an AVE ticket you have to look at something like Google Maps to actually plan a through journey in one go.

And I haven't been anywhere that has gone as far out of its way to make high speed rail travel feel like air travel.

 

[JonasB]

Maybe a bit of competition is what is needed for Renfe to get their act together and e.g. make it easier to buy tickets. I just wish Iryo would run a few trains across the border to France as well.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Iryo does offer through tickets to Cercanías at the origin and destination of a trip as well https://iryo.eu/en/products/improve-your-trip

 

[jamesontheroad]

Which of these three is currently the best option for Interrail pass holders? RENFE, like SNCF, price pass holder reservations on high speed trains so highly as to make them almost pointless.

 

[AdamWW]

Which of these three is currently the best option for Interrail pass holders? RENFE, like SNCF, price pass holder reservations on high speed trains so highly as to make them almost pointless.

Tne conclusion I've come to is that the best option for Interrail pass holders is go to somewhere other than Spain...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just checking Iryo fares, Madrd-Barcelona return in early December is a maximum of €121 in Infinita class (1st, including food) at peak hours (0730 out, 1700 back).
That's for 621km (slightly less than London-Glasgow) in 2.5 hours.
There's even a 20% discount at the moment, so €96 to book today.
The cheapest fares (Inicial class) are about half these fares, but carry more restrictions, and no food.
Meanwhile, Avanti wants £287 (1st class, including food) for a similar trip London-Manchester, for half the distance - that's a mix of an Advance one way and off-peak the other.
The cheapest Avanti fare offered is £95 for a pair of standard Advance singles (a walk-on standard Off Peak Return is £98.10).

Other differences:
Iryo have e-tickets only, booked in advance (no walk-on), and the booking is personal to you (must carry ID).
Looks like you have to choose your meal type at the time of booking (3 choices).
There will be a security check before boarding (mandatory in Spain for long-distance travel).
Trains every 2 hours, and connections on Cercanias at both ends are free as has been noted above.
No interchangeability with other TOCs, same as Advances in the UK (the Avanti off-peak fare is interchangeable).
Nominally, Avanti offer 3tph on the London-Manchester run, and accept railcards with usually 34% discount.

On the same day, Ouigo offers a Madrid-Barcelona peak hour return (2nd class only) for €48 (€29+€19), with supplements for things like seat selection.
Ouigo trains are not frequent enough (every 3 hours) to make switching trains viable.
Renfe offers fares from €90 (basic) to €140 (premium) each way. Trains are about hourly, more in the peaks.
Renfe has a range of discount cards (eg Tarjeta Dorada/senior railcard) with up to 40% off.

 

[geoffk]

Presumably there's all-operator ticket, as there would be in UK.

 

[AdamWW]

Just checking Iryo fares, Madrd-Barcelona return in early December is a maximum of €121 in Infinita class (1st, including food) at peak hours (0730 out, 1700 back).
That's for 621km (slightly less than London-Glasgow) in 2.5 hours.
There's even a 20% discount at the moment, so €96 to book today.
The cheapest fares (Inicial class) are about half these fares, but carry more restrictions, and no food.
Meanwhile, Avanti wants £287 (1st class, including food) for a similar trip London-Manchester, for half the distance - that's a mix of an Advance one way and off-peak the other.
The cheapest Avanti fare offered is £95 for a pair of standard Advance singles (a walk-on standard Off Peak Return is £98.10).

Other differences:
Iryo have e-tickets only, booked in advance (no walk-on), and the booking is personal to you (must carry ID).
Looks like you have to choose your meal type at the time of booking (3 choices).
There will be a security check before boarding (mandatory in Spain for long-distance travel).
Trains every 2 hours, and connections on Cercanias at both ends are free as has been noted above.
No interchangeability with other TOCs, same as Advances in the UK (the Avanti off-peak fare is interchangeable).
Nominally, Avanti offer 3tph on the London-Manchester run, and accept railcards with usually 34% discount.

On the same day, Ouigo offers a Madrid-Barcelona peak hour return (2nd class only) for €48 (€29+€19), with supplements for things like seat selection.
Ouigo trains are not frequent enough (every 3 hours) to make switching trains viable.
Renfe offers fares from €90 (basic) to €140 (premium) each way. Trains are about hourly, more in the peaks.
Renfe has a range of discount cards (eg Tarjeta Dorada/senior railcard) with up to 40% off.

Interesting comparison.

In some ways I'd say the biggest difference is that you can just turn up to the station in the UK and get on the next train even if it's nominally fully booked, though you might have to stand.

Presumably there's all-operator ticket, as there would be in UK.

I doubt it, and I don't know how that would work - I don't think there will be a "walk-up" fare on any of the operators in addition to the demand responsive fixed-service ones.

I don't think it is the norm in any case in Europe for there to be all-operator tickets which are accepted on open access operators.

 

[diamond chap]

RENFE does not sell any kind of transfertickets-only on AVE/Hi-speed tix you can get at both sides, if there is, a free trip on the cercanias= S-bahn style local network-in that cityzone or just around. But even that is sometimes curbed as it has to be loaded on a chipcard, which takes some 4-6 week to produce and hence is out of use for any visitor.

That wasn't my experience when I visited a few weeks ago. My AVE tickets were available as QR codes in the RENFE app and the same codes formed my Cercanías tickets which I scanned to gain entry through the barriers. I didn't have to load the Cercanías tickets onto a separate chipcard.

 

[geoffk]

Interesting comparison.

In some ways I'd say the biggest difference is that you can just turn up to the station in the UK and get on the next train even if it's nominally fully booked, though you might have to stand.



I doubt it, and I don't know how that would work - I don't think there will be a "walk-up" fare on any of the operators in addition to the demand responsive fixed-service ones.

I don't think it is the norm in any case in Europe for there to be all-operator tickets which are accepted on open access operators.

Just like an airline then, security checks and all. Perhaps we will get those on HS2!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Presumably there's all-operator ticket, as there would be in UK.

I don't think so with the new operators as they are open access, so behave much more like LCC airlines.
I'm not sure about Renfe, but they do differentiate between LD (long distance) and MD (medium distance) services, like DB does between ICE and Regional/local.
For LD/MD you also have to provide a name on a ticket, and have a seat assigned (no walk-on/standing/moving seats).

The security checks were part of the response to the bombing of trains at Madrid Atocha in 2004, and will apply to all long distance trains.
It's not as intrusive as at an airport, but all baggage must be scanned before boarding.

 

[AdamWW]

Just like an airline then, security checks and all. Perhaps we will get those on HS2!

Very much like an airline. Including (in Madrid anyway) waiting in the departure lounge after security then when the "gate" is announced a huge queue forming so everyone can have their ticket checked manually on the way down to the platform.

Something that makes sense on an airliner with one door but is a bit of a bottleneck when boarding a long train.

I can't see much appetite for replicating this in the UK, and I hope that people would also recognize the futility of security checks on trains that continue onto the regular network and therefore won't have the same checks when heading in the other direction. (Unless we do some radical reconstructing of many of our stations).

The security checks were part of the response to the bombing of trains at Madrid Atocha in 2004, and will apply to all long distance trains.
It's not as intrusive as at an airport, but all baggage must be scanned before boarding.

It is perhaps worth noting that the bombs in Madrid were on suburban trains and therefore would not have been stopped by the existing security arrangements.

(Also, at least in my limited experience, the security checks are only for standard gauge trains. I've boarded (and gone to the platform to look at) Iberian gauge intercity trains (including the Torre Oro which I think is the longest journey you can do on a single train in Spain) without passing through security.

I don't think so with the new operators as they are open access, so behave much more like LCC airlines.
I'm not sure about Renfe, but they do differentiate between LD (long distance) and MD (medium distance) services, like DB does between ICE and Regional/local.
For LD/MD you also have to provide a name on a ticket, and have a seat assigned (no walk-on/standing/moving seats).

I'd say in the case of Renfe the difference between LD and MD is a bit different than on DB because Renfe only offer tickets for individual services so in general so far as the passenger is concerned it doesn't make much difference which type of ticket they have - you can't just jump onto a train no matter what category it is.

The fare structure is different though (LD services have demand responsive prices, MD seem to have fixed prices so at quiet times an Intercity train can be a lot cheaper than an MD on the same route despite having better facilities). And if you have a ticket that lets you change it, maybe you're restricted to the same category as to what you change it onto.

There doesn't seem to be any kind of ticket that would let you just walk up and travel on the next train though - as generally with airlines even a flexible ticket has to be for a given train even if you then change it.

 

[HS2isgood]

Btw, I'm Spanish.

The Spanish way of operating high-speed rail is absolutely stupid. No flexible fares, no cross-operator fares, mandatory reservation, the stupid safety controls, stations like A Gudiña having crazy numbers of staff for a one-platform station which sees 8 trains a day (4 westbound and 4 eastbound) and a whopping average of 55 passengers a day, etc.

Timetables don't make much sense, as no one has really bothered creating a pattern (even though Valencia and Sevilla are mostly clockface hourly now, an upgrade from the previous nonsense). In some corridors like Galicia you have the weird mix of 250 kph double-gauge stock (130/730) and 300 kph standard-only (112) with transfers at Ourense. Surprisingly changing at Ourense is faster than the directs. Some places like Cádiz have awful service and in the summer every corridor fills up, so there's no way to buy a ticket on the day. Renfe long-distance services still turn a profit, with some cross-subsidization going on (the Ponferrada, Salamanca, Badajoz or Lugo LD services being money losers, but most other money losing services were abolished with Covid). I wonder what level of service could be achieved with reasonable levels of staffing (like ditching nonsense security).

Renfe is the only operator to sell through tickets, and both Renfe and Iryo have free transfer to commuter trains. Ouigo doesn't because it refuses to pay the fee. Both Ouigo and Iryo lack double gauge stock, even though Iryo is going to buy some soon, as Coruña, Gijón, Portugal and the Basque Country are part of their plans. Ouigo doesn't really have any expansion plans beyond their current network, Alacant and Andalusia. Even though Iryo doesn't sell connections between its own trains, it does sell them with Air Europa flights.

Another good thing about Iryo is it along with Trenitalia are planning a great expansion towards France, in Iryo trains you get future concept maps including London, Marseille, Paris, Genève, Milano via Chambéry...

Honestly I just wished the EU forced an ORCATS-like system on the operators. At least we have some advances: the EU railways need to have a common website for through tickets by 23rd march. Else the European Commission will impose it on them. The problem is that it doesn't solve problems like the lack of interavailability or mandatory reservation. There have been some attempts to abolish mandatory reservation but France always opposes them on the grounds it'd collapse the LGV Sud-Est

Btw, the security checks have been there since 1992

 

[PTR 444]

Does the Spanish approach to high speed rail make a significant impact on the markets that use it? I would imagine the linespeed alone makes domestic rail travel competitive with air, but does the security theatre make a significant dent in the journey times that air travel then becomes more attractive for some?

 

[HS2isgood]

Does the Spanish approach to high speed rail make a significant impact on the markets that use it? I would imagine the linespeed alone makes domestic rail travel competitive with air, but does the security theatre make a significant dent in the journey times that air travel then becomes more attractive for some?

Not really much, as it's way milder than in airports. You can arrive 10 minutes before the departure and still take the train, I'd only leave more time at both Madrid terminals (even though I like to arrive earlier).

 

[AdamWW]

Not really much, as it's way milder than in airports. You can arrive 10 minutes before the departure and still take the train, I'd only leave more time at both Madrid terminals (even though I like to arrive earlier).

It may be that it actually helps take journey share. Air travellers are used to having to queue up to go through security and to get on their plane, annoying and unnecessary as that sort of thing may seem to people used to train travel elsewhere, and I can imagine some of them being put off train travel if they felt it was unsafe as there is no "security". (After all, there were those bombs in Madrid...)

This is about the only logic I can think of for why it makes sense to have security on some trains and not others (even in some cases travelling over the same tracks and using the same stations).

 

[Watershed]

It may be that it actually helps take journey share. Air travellers are used to having to queue up to go through security and to get on their plane, annoying and unnecessary as that sort of thing may seem to people used to train travel elsewhere, and I can imagine some of them being put off train travel if they felt it was unsafe as there is no "security". (After all, there were those bombs in Madrid...)

This is about the only logic I can think of for why it makes sense to have security on some trains and not others (even in some cases travelling over the same tracks and using the same stations).

It's about as logical as having security checks for Eurostar, when you can take domestic services over the HS lines at either side without checks - and can take a tank of petrol (and who knows what else!) into the tunnel if you drive.

That being said, the security checks are not nearly as onerous as those required at airport security, and they don't tend to cause huge queues. They're an irritant but no more.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Timetables don't make much sense, as no one has really bothered creating a pattern (even though Valencia and Sevilla are mostly clockface hourly now, an upgrade from the previous nonsense). In some corridors like Galicia you have the weird mix of 250 kph double-gauge stock (130/730) and 300 kph standard-only (112) with transfers at Ourense. Surprisingly changing at Ourense is faster than the directs.

Btw, the security checks have been there since 1992

From what I have read, the intention was to convert the new Galician broad gauge high speed line west of Ourense to standard gauge when the HSL arrived from the east.
It's even laid with dual-gauge sleepers I think.
Is this still going to happen? It also needs ETCS to enable full high speed operation.
I think there are also other stretches in Spain planned to convert to standard gauge (or be dual gauged), as part of the Basque Y project.

I must admit I thought the extra security was because of the Atocha attack in 2004.
I see the 1992 ETA bombing in Madrid was an attack on army facilities, and not related to rail facilities in any way.

 

[HS2isgood]

From what I have read, the intention was to convert the new Galician broad gauge high speed line west of Ourense to standard gauge when the HSL arrived from the east.
It's even laid with dual-gauge sleepers I think.
Is this still going to happen? It also needs ETCS to enable full high speed operation.
I think there are also other stretches in Spain planned to convert to standard gauge (or be dual gauged), as part of the Basque Y project.

I must admit I thought the extra security was because of the Atocha attack in 2004.
I see the 1992 ETA bombing in Madrid was an attack on army facilities, and not related to rail facilities in any way.

All new lines and renewals of current lines have dual-gauge sleepers, but no, the Galician high-speed won't be charged to standard in the short term, because it's used by through freight into lines in Iberian gauge too. Of course, if the EU mandates standard gauge for the TEN-T corridors, this would have to change.

The lines due to be regauged are the Vilaseca-Castelló, Xàtiva-La Encina and Alacant-Murcia parts of the Mediterranean Mainline, and dual gauge will be installed in San Sebastián-Hendaye and Vilaseca-St Vicenç-Castellbisbal. Castellbisbal to Mollet already has dual gauge, so there'll be a through freight and passenger itinerary in standard gauge through all the Mediterranean Corridor. However, the Tortosa to Barcelona semifast services will have a change at Tarragona (centre not Camp).