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Trivia : Lines outside or adjacent to signal boxes that are not controlled by them

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Southern Dvr

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Moderator note - spilt from:


Unusually VASC will not have any control over the lines outside it’s own box!
 
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Watershed

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Unusually VASC will not have any control over the lines outside it’s own box!
It wouldn't be the first box where that's the case - Manchester South and East SCCs are located opposite Edgeley No 1 & 2 boxes, which control the line there. Meanwhile, the lines outside Manchester ROC are controlled by Manchester East SCC :lol:
 
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Mag_seven

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The lines outside the West of Scotland Signalling Centre at Cowlairs are controlled by Edinburgh Signalling Centre
 

NSEUser

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Tonbridge box controls the top end of the Hastings line - but looks out on Tonbridge station, RTT and XTD lines (controlled by Ashford WS2).
 

D6130

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The lines and junction outside Low Gates signalbox (North-East of Northallerton) are controlled by York IECC....with Low Gates controlling the double track plain line section further North towards Eaglescliffe.
 

Lucy1501

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I believe Rochdale West Signal Box fits into this category. It is located somewhere near Castleton East Junction, yet controls the Calder Valley Line from Rochdale to Smithy Bridge a few miles away,
 

Islineclear3_1

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Canterbury West-Wye-Area Control Centre is located at Canterbury West (in the shadow of its own signal box) but does not control any signalling in the station area. It controls the line further west at Chartham, Chilham and Wye before Ashford IECC takes over
 
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Elecman

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I believe Rochdale West Signal Box fits into this category. It is located somewhere near Castleton East Junction, yet controls the Calder Valley Line from Rochdale to Smithy Bridge a few miles away,
Yes the other side of the tracks about 300 meters away
 

Dai Corner

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Am I right in thinking that Bristol Temple Meads station area is signalled from Didcot and not the adjacent 'box?
 
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Most of the ROCs when built didn't get the track outside as their first control area. In fact Rugby and Three bridges still don't with a neighbouring previous box still controlling the local area. And the same was the case for Derby and York ROCs when they were new, but they have now gained control of their local area.

Bristol panel has had the reverse with TVSC (Thames Valey Signaling Centre) at Didcot taking control of the station whilst leaving a panel behind there to control the line to Weston and onwards.
 

Ken H

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What about Carnforth? Its very close to the WCML which it doesnt control.
 

zwk500

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What about Carnforth? Its very close to the WCML which it doesnt control.
Carnforth Station Jn does control the lines immediately outside of it, though. Preston PSB controls the south end platform signals, but the North end of the station platforms are controlled by the local box.
I suspect that Carnforth Stn Jn has never controlled the line further than it does now, and that there was a Carnforth South box which the PSB replaced, but will need confirmation of that.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There will be more oddities as time goes by.
Cardiff ROC controls Shrewsbury-Crewe (both exclusive), and Rockliffe-Llysfaen on the North Wales coast, as a result of low-cost resignalling.
But more than 100 miles of the Marches line in between (Pontypool-Shrewsbury-Wrexham) is still under local mechanical signalling.
Chester PSB controls Gresford-Saltney Jn-Connah's Quay and routes through Chester, some of these routes being in Wales.
Llysfaen is about 190 rail miles from Cardiff, though maybe only 150 as the electron flows.
 

D6130

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I suspect that Carnforth Stn Jn has never controlled the line further than it does now, and that there was a Carnforth South box which the PSB replaced, but will need confirmation of that.
O.S. Nock's excellent book 'Electric Euston to Glasgow' (Ian Allan, 1974) has a very detailed chapter on the Weaver Junction-Glasgow resignalling, with full track and signalling diagrams for the four new power boxes at Warrington, Preston, Carlisle and Motherwell....plus the new panel installed at that time in the 1961-vintage Glasgow Central power box. Of great interest is the fact the diagrams clearly show the currently-existing box at Carnforth Station Junction (the junction for Skipton) and the now-closed (1997) box at Furness & Midland Junction as having been abolished, with two aspect alternating distant and stop signals between there and Arnside....with the latter being the fringe box to Preston. I can only assume that this part of the scheme was cancelled at very short notice....probably due to lack of funds. Or was it deemed necessary at the time to retain the Furness & Midland Jn to Carnforth East Jn avoiding line as a strategic diversionary route for nuclear traffic to and from Sellafield? - the reason why, as several old hand Skipton drivers told me, Carnforth to Settle Jn was never singled. Photo plate 16 in the same book clearly shows the ex-LNWR Carnforth (Middle?) Junction signalbox on the Up side of the main line at the South end of the station....and I believe that there was another box about three quarters of a mile further South at Carnforth South Junction.
 

bluegoblin7

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On LUL, Earls' Court no longer controls any signalling for its area; the District line being controller from Hammersmith and the Piccadilly line from South Kensington.

Likewise, Baker Street (Met) no longer controls any lines nearby; the SSR is, again, at Hammersmith and the Jubilee is at Neasden (the separate Bakerloo line SCC does still operate the Bakerloo line, however.)
 

Dstock7080

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Richmond (London) controls the two tracks immediately under the window but the further two are now from Basingstoke.
 

Snow1964

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Wimbledon (in the old yard) controls the SW mainline, but not the tracks nearest the box (the former Tooting loop, now Sutton lines)
 

Nippy

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When I joined in 1993 Old Oak Panel had lost the Main and Relief Lines outside the box to Slough IECC
Slough IECC - now closed - didn’t control outside the box, Paddington to West Drayton East Controlled from there.
TVSC didn’t control lines outside the box for the first few years until Swindon B closed. Control of the Didcot area from MAS being Reading, Swindon and then Didcot.
 

DanNCL

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The Tyne & Wear Metro runs directly underneath Tyneside IECC but is controlled from South Gosforth.
 

Springs Branch

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O.S. Nock's excellent book 'Electric Euston to Glasgow' (Ian Allan, 1974) has a very detailed chapter on the Weaver Junction-Glasgow resignalling, with full track and signalling diagrams for the four new power boxes at Warrington, Preston, Carlisle and Motherwell....plus the new panel installed at that time in the 1961-vintage Glasgow Central power box. Of great interest is the fact the diagrams clearly show the currently-existing box at Carnforth Station Junction (the junction for Skipton) and the now-closed (1997) box at Furness & Midland Junction as having been abolished, with two aspect alternating distant and stop signals between there and Arnside....with the latter being the fringe box to Preston. I can only assume that this part of the scheme was cancelled at very short notice....probably due to lack of funds. Or was it deemed necessary at the time to retain the Furness & Midland Jn to Carnforth East Jn avoiding line as a strategic diversionary route for nuclear traffic to and from Sellafield? - the reason why, as several old hand Skipton drivers told me, Carnforth to Settle Jn was never singled. Photo plate 16 in the same book clearly shows the ex-LNWR Carnforth (Middle?) Junction signalbox on the Up side of the main line at the South end of the station....and I believe that there was another box about three quarters of a mile further South at Carnforth South Junction.
I've read that the reason for the slightly odd situation at Carnforth Station box, and the discrepency with the signalling diagram printed in O.S. Nock's book is this:

In the late 1960s, at the time BR developed its Business Case for the Treasury to approve funds for the Weaver Junction - Glasgow electrification, the "hot button" to press for a favourable ministerial signature was to include a statement like "this investment will allow us to close and dismantle XX miles of track on other route(s)".

In this particular scheme, the stated plan was to close the Settle & Carlisle, the Blackburn - Hellifield and the Carnforth - Settle Jn lines as through routes on completion of the WCML electrification.

Single-track, freight-only branches with minimal signalling & maintenance requirements would remain for occasional quarry trains between Skipton & Horton-in-Ribblesdale, Blackburn & Horrocksford (Clitheroe) and from the Carlisle end (to Long Meg?)

The Carnforth - Settle Jn line was to disappear completely - hence preparation of plans for Preston PSB to control the Furness line as far as Arnside which are shown in Nock's book.

It also explains why TCB resignalling of the East Lancs Line through Blackburn under the new Preston PSB did not include any of the line towards Clitheroe & Hellifield, nor did Carlisle PSB control any significant length of the S&C at its northern end.

As it turned out the lines had a reprieve for long enough for the original closure threat to recede.


The Electric Euston to Glasgow book is certainly a good account of the northern WCML electrification project with much useful and fascinating detail. But I always get the impression the book was published in a desperate rush to coincide with the start of electric services.

A number of errors did make it into print (like the Carnforth - Arnside signal diagram) which I charitably put down to publisher & printer time pressure, rather than lack of diligence on the part of Nock. However, the final signal notice for the Carnforth station area was published to BR operations staff in November 1972, which should have been enough time for the correct version to get into the 1974 book.

Ian Allan and Nock might have done better to publish the book a year or so after the start of 'Electric Scots', included a final chapter about the actual service implementation and fixed some of the errors (and found a better-quality photo of an electrically hauled train running north of Weaver Jn than the one used on the dust jacket)

The Signalling Record Society have made the 'Preston Signal Box Stages 3, 4, 5 and 6' Special Notice 1203G available for download on their website. It's an 8.9MB file, but those show the 'as built' signalling at Carnforth during the 1972-73 period:-
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/pullfree.asp?FilePath=ArchiveSignals\Downloads\brmr&FileName=1972-1203g.pdf
 

Signal Head

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O.S. Nock's excellent book 'Electric Euston to Glasgow' (Ian Allan, 1974) has a very detailed chapter on the Weaver Junction-Glasgow resignalling, with full track and signalling diagrams for the four new power boxes at Warrington, Preston, Carlisle and Motherwell....plus the new panel installed at that time in the 1961-vintage Glasgow Central power box. Of great interest is the fact the diagrams clearly show the currently-existing box at Carnforth Station Junction (the junction for Skipton) and the now-closed (1997) box at Furness & Midland Junction as having been abolished, with two aspect alternating distant and stop signals between there and Arnside....with the latter being the fringe box to Preston. I can only assume that this part of the scheme was cancelled at very short notice....probably due to lack of funds. Or was it deemed necessary at the time to retain the Furness & Midland Jn to Carnforth East Jn avoiding line as a strategic diversionary route for nuclear traffic to and from Sellafield? - the reason why, as several old hand Skipton drivers told me, Carnforth to Settle Jn was never singled. Photo plate 16 in the same book clearly shows the ex-LNWR Carnforth (Middle?) Junction signalbox on the Up side of the main line at the South end of the station....and I believe that there was another box about three quarters of a mile further South at Carnforth South Junction.
Carnforth No's 1 & 2 controlled the main line so far as I know. I've seen the OS Nock diagrams, I can only presume it was originally intended to close the Wennington line as part payback for modernisation funding.

Common sense would suggest that if it was always going to be retained the area would have been put into Carnforth interlocking and Station (at least) abolished (keep East Junction as a fringe otherwise it's a long way to resignal to Wennington).

I have wondered whether maybe by the time the decision to retain the line was taken, design work was too far advanced and/or the relay room already constructed without sufficient space for the fairly complex additional layout. Keeping Stn Jcn has resulted in a rather complex arrangement of releasing for the bidirectional lines between the two boxes. It really isn't where you'd plan to put a fringe, given the choice.

There were other changes part way through the scheme - eg the initial design included the Keswick branch at Penrith (Carlisle PSB area), it was present on the panel design and some of the interlocking drawings.

It wouldn't be the first box where that's the case - Manchester South and East SCCs are located opposite Edgeley No 1 & 2 boxes, which control the line there. Meanwhile, the lines outside Manchester ROC are controlled by Manchester East SCC :lol:
Manchester North box (at Salford Crescent) didn't own the lines directly outside it either (Windsor Link interlocking from Manchester Piccadilly SCC)
 

Railsigns

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Is Ferryhill box still open? I thought that its area of control had been taken over by Tyne IECC in the early 1990s.
It closed on 10 February last year, but it ceased to control the ECML lines long before that.
 

D6130

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It closed on 10 February last year, but it ceased to control the ECML lines long before that.
Ah, that must have been what I was thinking about. It must have lost a lot of its workload when the Leamside line was closed (Sorry....mothballed) and disconnected, as well as the Coxhoe and Raisby branches.
 

Pinza-C55

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Ah, that must have been what I was thinking about. It must have lost a lot of its workload when the Leamside line was closed (Sorry....mothballed) and disconnected, as well as the Coxhoe and Raisby branches.
As far as I remember the Leamside connection was taken over by Tyneside and Ferryhill box was just a shunting frame for the yard. I walked the Coxhoe line in 1980 and although the track was intact it was well disused.
 
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