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Currently, the Paddington - Shenfield service runs at 12 trains per hour in peak hours, all with the same stopping pattern (calling at all stations).
What's the most frequent service on the whole National Rail network, with the origin, destination, and all intermediate stops the same?
I ain't looking for places where multiple different services combine to a frequent headway. I'm only looking for a single service which is very frequent on its own.
Suspect the only candidate likely ever to have beaten this - at least over a longish period of time - might have been the Waterloo & City. Others would fall on the varied termini /stopping patterns.
Suspect the only candidate likely ever to have beaten this - at least over a longish period of time - might have been the Waterloo & City. Others would fall on the varied termini /stopping patterns.
The Shenfield Metro mentioned above was a self-contained line before the through running of Elizabeth line wholly on its own tracks, similar to the core section.
Had the core section ever had more than 12 trains per hour prior to through running?
What's the reason that such self-contained operations, which are the best for reliability and utilise available track capacity the most effectively, are not commonplace on the National Rail network? In contrast, some of the more frequent tube lines can have up to 34 trains per hour in peak hours. If we can have 30 12-coach trains per hour on all the commuter lines into London there won't be overcrowding anymore.
Other than that, I very much doubt any NR route has ever operated more frequently than 10-minutely. Possibly the next most frequent is the Stourbridge Shuttle
Suspect the only candidate likely ever to have beaten this - at least over a longish period of time - might have been the Waterloo & City. Others would fall on the varied termini /stopping patterns.
While the W&C was definitely Not The Underground in the BR era, the distinction between The Underground and Not The Underground is anachronistic when applied to the 1860s, and the Metropolitan and District Lines might have had more frequent repetitive services than the W&C at some point.
Other than that, I very much doubt any NR route has ever operated more frequently than 10-minutely. Possibly the next most frequent is the Stourbridge Shuttle
I imagine peak Liverpool Street - Shenfield in early electrified days might come close - but there were probably a few oddities spoiling the uniformity.
The Shenfield Metro mentioned above was a self-contained line before the through running of Elizabeth line wholly on its own tracks, similar to the core section.
Had the core section ever had more than 12 trains per hour prior to through running?
What's the reason that such self-contained operations, which are the best for reliability and utilise available track capacity the most effectively, are not commonplace on the National Rail network? In contrast, some of the more frequent tube lines can have up to 34 trains per hour in peak hours. If we can have 30 12-coach trains per hour on all the commuter lines into London there won't be overcrowding anymore.
We don’t need 30 12 coach tph on the all the commuter lines into London. We simply do not need that capacity. Besides, what do you consider ‘commuter lines into London’. East Grinstead and Caterham are both ‘commuter lines’ are you proposing 60tph through East Croydon solely from those destinations? The East Grinstead line would struggle to justify more than 4tph in the peaks; even then, I think if 3tph were evenly spaced at 20 minute intervals that would be suitable for East Grinstead in the peak. Plus, there wouldn’t be space in the terminals to turn them. But crucially, we can’t do that with the infrastructure anyway.
Regarding the metro question, I guess it’s due to geography. A straight run to a terminal point with little to no involvement from branch lines and junctions. Heading south of London, you’ve got such a tangle of suburban lines and junctions it wouldn’t be possible. London Overground sort of it does it on the Brighton Main Line but it has to serve West Croydon and Crystal Palace so the high frequency can operate so far down, but then it has to split. Halving the service to both stations. Heading the other way, the GWML could have done something similar to Reading (as Elizabeth Line now does) but it used to be served by two/three carriage DMUs which don’t lend themselves to that style of operation. Plus some of them carried on beyond Reading and I think there was some skip stop.
Also, and I can’t stress this enough, and I know you fundamentally disagree, but we have many lines in the UK that do not need a high frequency all day every day.
I imagine peak Liverpool Street - Shenfield in early electrified days might come close - but there were probably a few oddities spoiling the uniformity.
The OP has started another thread on that route, and the Shenfields right from the start operated as two routes offpeak - allstations Gidea Park and semi-fast Shenfield (later Southend).
The nearest to the OP's "Metro" pattern would have been Waterloo-Wimbledon pre Covid at 18tph (or the TL core); 18tph is probably the limit from a terminus as there has to be at least one conflicting movement per cycle of departures. (ISTR the slam-door timetable of the 70s beat that, but some trains only called at Clapham Jn which fitted demand AND created space for those conflicting movements.)
PS You could also improve on 18tph by using tube-style trains with 3 double doors a side and fast acceleration - but over longer distances they have disadvantages (try the 10+ miles from Buckhurst Hill...)
The Shenfield Metro mentioned above was a self-contained line before the through running of Elizabeth line wholly on its own tracks, similar to the core section.
Had the core section ever had more than 12 trains per hour prior to through running?
What's the reason that such self-contained operations, which are the best for reliability and utilise available track capacity the most effectively, are not commonplace on the National Rail network? In contrast, some of the more frequent tube lines can have up to 34 trains per hour in peak hours. If we can have 30 12-coach trains per hour on all the commuter lines into London there won't be overcrowding anymore.
You've been corrected on this in another thread. The Great Eastern 'Electric' lines were used or crossed at various points between London Liverpool Street and Shenfield by freight operators or Greater Anglia. They still are at various times throughout the week, both in the schedule and in practice. They are mostly used by XR trains, but unlike in the Central Operating Section these rights are not exclusive.
The Shenfield Metro mentioned above was a self-contained line before the through running of Elizabeth line wholly on its own tracks, similar to the core section.
Had the core section ever had more than 12 trains per hour prior to through running?
What's the reason that such self-contained operations, which are the best for reliability and utilise available track capacity the most effectively, are not commonplace on the National Rail network? In contrast, some of the more frequent tube lines can have up to 34 trains per hour in peak hours. If we can have 30 12-coach trains per hour on all the commuter lines into London there won't be overcrowding anymore.
The reason at its simplest is either that there isn’t / hasn’t been the demand for it (GWML suburban services, for example - where the infrastructure was there - but the passengers weren’t) or that the demand was for something else (the demand for through services to both city and west end on the Southern, for example)
Currently, the Paddington - Shenfield service runs at 12 trains per hour in peak hours, all with the same stopping pattern (calling at all stations).
What's the most frequent service on the whole National Rail network, with the origin, destination, and all intermediate stops the same?
I ain't looking for places where multiple different services combine to a frequent headway. I'm only looking for a single service which is very frequent on its own.
In the up morning peak between 08:00 and 09:00 GA run 13 trains from Shenfield all calling at Stratford and Liverpool St, nothing equivalent in the evening as the Southend Vics are only every 15 mins rather than 10 and a couple of Colchester main line services don’t call at Stratford.
A quick look at c1960 LM region tt showed every 5 mins Liverpool Central LL to Rock Ferry; every 10 mins to New Brighton and West Kirby in the peaks (half that off peak).
Probably the most frequent service was on the New (dc) line beyond Queens Park, but half those would Bakerloo line trains.
Beyond those, quick look didn't show any thing much below 10 minute interval - and tende to be a bit erratic.
Re OP question, is (or pre XR) LST-Shenfield and LST-Gidea Park counting as single service or two ?
If it's short workings to Gidea Park counts as Shenfield service, then another service historically reaching 12 TPH was, believe it or not, Ryde Pier Head.
However not all advertised.
On summer SO, after electrification, late 60s / early 70s there were timetabled 4 TPH Ryde Pier Head <-> Shanklin - but there were up to 8 TPH additional unadvertised "as required" Pier Head <-> Esplanade shuttles. These did not last all day, mostly the shuttles were 4TPH, but there were bursts of 8 TPH at the very heaviest demand period around mid day when both ways of passengers flows to/from ferries were at maximum.
Passenger numbers were huge - summer SO Waterloo service on the Portsmouth Direct was 4 TPH express 12cars never mind the semi-fasts and services from other directions. The issue was massive numbers of people rammed on to ferries which is why Ryde needed 12 TPH at times to clear shift that lot. The shuttles continued empty to StJohns Road to reverse. This explains why there were quite so many Vec/Tis units as there were to form 7car trains. Every unit out on a summer SO.
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What's the reason that such self-contained operations, which are the best for reliability and utilise available track capacity the most effectively, are not commonplace on the National Rail network? In contrast, some of the more frequent tube lines can have up to 34 trains per hour in peak hours. If we can have 30 12-coach trains per hour on all the commuter lines into London there won't be overcrowding anymore.
The simple answer to that one is dead end terminal station capacity.
Thameslink and Crossrail can operate at such headways exactly because they are through.
If you tried Thameslink 24 TPH (if we ever get there) from the south to, say, Blackfriars terminate and turn back, and from the north to, say Farringdon (or Moorgate as was) terminate and turn back, you'd need a b****y sight more than the current 2 through platforms at each.
This is actually one of the under pinning drivers for converting the original GLC / NSE Thameslink core into what it is now - a huge throughput increase without inefficient terminating at dead end stations.
If you take the SW lines out of Waterloo, once you get west of Raynes Park on the Mains and west of Barnes on the Windsors, there are quite a number of available paths, but they can't be usefully used since there is not enough terminal platform capacity at Waterloo (and absolutely no ability to do this at Clapham Junction). Which is one of the under pinning drivers for XR2.
Even with a single point to single point service the same principle applies. Your 30 TPH 12car service arriving at a dead end terminal point really takes up 10 min per train to turn back when you add up entering a station throat to arriving platform, dwell, and clearing the throat on exit so straight away you need 5 platforms when it all runs like clockwork. Which it won't. So say 6. OK so let's say group WAterloo into 4 services - one on each of Main Fasts, Main Slows, Main Windsors, Slow Windsors. 24 platforms for 4 routes each with a 30 TPH service = 120 TPH /appears/ to fit. Now precisely how and where do all the current passengers from and to all over LSWR commuter land change into those 4 services since they no longer have through trains from all the other routes.
Most frequent I can find historically in Scotland is 6tph of Cathcart Circle services out from Glasgow Central via Shawlands for an hour or so of the evening peak in 1963!
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