Trivia : Tiltiest parts of the WCML

[159]

What are the areas of the WCML with the highest combination of tilt and speed (i.e. at 125 mph)? In the inner part Berkhamsted is very canted.

 

[Boysteve]

I like Rugby at 125mph, and Linslade tunnel!

 

[Ianno87]

Linslade tunnel all the way!

Weedon is pretty tilty too.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Plenty of tilt further north.
Lichfield towards Tamworth, Armitage-Rugeley, the new Norton Bridge, Whitmore (hard left, right, right heading north).
All of these are 125mph for 390s and 221s.
Tilt over the fells is generally at lower speeds, but there are several long fast stretches north of the border.
The stretch alongside the Clyde north of Beattock is particularly impressive for high-speed tilt through a spectacular landscape.

 

[Bald Rick]

Mathematically, Linslade down fast. 90mph regular, 125EPS. Even the drivers hold their breath going round that and into the single bore tunnel.

 

[Mordac]

Plenty of tilt further north.
Lichfield towards Tamworth, Armitage-Rugeley, the new Norton Bridge, Whitmore (hard left, right, right heading north).
All of these are 125mph for 390s and 221s.
Tilt over the fells is generally at lower speeds, but there are several long fast stretches north of the border.
The stretch alongside the Clyde north of Beattock is particularly impressive for high-speed tilt through a spectacular landscape.

Second this, this is the sort of stretch where the Voyagers really shine with their massive windows. At high speeds, the engine seems to vibrate at a different frequency that does not transmit to the saloon so much, as well.

 

[Elecman]

Linslade I would suggest

 

[Highlandspring]

The curve at Lamington Viaduct, between Abington and Symington, has the greatest amount of tilt in Scotland Route at least - the full 8 degrees in a Pendolino at 120mph. Its particularly impressive from the cab.

 

[Ships]

North of Lancaster....

 

[neilb62]

Norton Bridge is 115mph both ways not 125. If we have visitors in the cab it always goes VERY quiet as we approach Linslade Tunnel on the Dn Fast! Berkhampstead is pretty impressive too although only 115 for a 221.

 

[route101]

Lamington i notice the tilt . Is the linespeed 125mph south of Carstairs ?

 

[cambsy]

Tilt on the WCML is from Queens Park area to Carstairs South Junction, with various bits where tilt is not allowed for gauging reasons etc, mostly after Warrington, The main bits where 8%.of tilt is used, are Berkhamstead, Linslade and reverse curves just after tunnel towards Bletchley, Wolverton, Weedon, Rugby, around Rugeley, Queensville Curve Stafford, then Preston-Oxenholme. Penrith South bound, Carlisle-Carstairs, for the following line speeds ill use 110/125[left hand Conventional and right hand the Tilt speed for Pendolinos] heading North bound direction,sometimes the speed differs between North bound and South bound for various reasons:

Queens park-willesden area 80-90/100-105
Willesden area-bushey 90-110/105-125
Bushey-Watford North tunnel 110
Watford North tunnel-Weedon Curves 110/125
Weedon curves 100/120
Weedon Curves-Kilsby tunnel 110/125
Kilsby tunnel 110
Kilsby tunnel North Portal-Colwich Jct 75-110/125
Colwich Jct 50
Colwich Jct-queensville Curve. 90/100
Queensville Curve 75/85
Queensville Curve-Crewe 75-110/85-125
Crewe 80
Crewe Coal Yard-Acton Grange. 110/125
Acton Grange-Coppull area. 80-90
Coppull area-Farington-Jct. 110/125
Preston 35.

The best tilt sections north of Preston are Preston-Oxenholme, Between Oxenholme and Carlisle the best bits are Shap and Tebay area south bound, Penrith south bound 95 EPS, north of Carlisle there re some decent tilt sections, in good scenery until Carstairs then its normal speed to Glasgow Central.

 

[neilb62]

Lamington i notice the tilt . Is the linespeed 125mph south of Carstairs ?

It's 125 from near Thankerton (over the top of the hill from Carstairs)to Lamington. The next 125 stretch is about halfway down Beattock to Beattock Village then from South of Village all the way to just South of Lockerbie.

 

[Railperf]

What amazes me, is that tilt is supposed to allow you to travel through the curves at up to 25% faster than a normal train without causing discomfort to passengers and throwing possessions around the passenger saloons. But the sections where tilt is activated are so relatively short, that the time saving by running at the higher EPS speeds over the 104 miles from Glasgow to Carlisle only amounts to about 2 or 3 minutes maximum. I believe the fastest Pendolino's have achieved a 64 minute timing, whereas i was once on a 221 Voyager (tilt disabled or faulty) that ran at non EPS speeds and did the journey in a tad over 67 minutes. I think a Class 87 hauled train has also achieved 67 minutes wish.
To be honest there don't appear to be any technical reasons why a lot of the straighter sections of track could not be increased to 125mph non EPS, and that would decrease the difference between tilt and non-tilt journey times
But maybe the TOC's and Network rail looked at the additional costs - wear and tear to track and train plus increased energy costs in creating a speed profile that would see higher speeds up to 125mph on the straight or lightly curved track, while maintaining the non EPS speeds round the curves as present.
From a passenger point of view - i do wish the Pendolini had much taller windows - i notice the latest Italian ETR600 and 610 Pendolini do have larger Voyager style Windows. And i can admit to having suffered the dreaded 'tilt nausea', where you have been reading a book or checking your phone and then look up and out of the window to see the scenery banked at an acute angle - whereas your head is telling you it shouldn't be.

 

[cambsy]

Memory maybe slightly out, but the special Glasgow-Euston nonstop run did Glasgow-Carlisle in 62 mins to passing, interesting that Raiperf has had tilt nausea, must say I’ve never had that particular problem even when been watching movie on Beam, or reading magazine, though he is right that a non tilt running Pendolino would only lose about 10 mins between say London and Stoke, and I’ve had a non tilt Pendolino lose only about 6-7 mins from Glasgow-Lancaster, so time difference is not that great between tilt and non tilt, but I enjoy tilt so always try avoid non tilt pendo’s, wish I’d been able to be on the APT when its was running, once went to Preston and took non stop train to Euston which could have been an APT, but alas was an 87 and Mk2’s.

 

[Railperf]

Memory maybe slightly out, but the special Glasgow-Euston nonstop run did Glasgow-Carlisle in 62 mins to passing, interesting that Raiperf has had tilt nausea, must say I’ve never had that particular problem even when been watching movie on Beam, or reading magazine, though he is right that a non tilt running Pendolino would only lose about 10 mins between say London and Stoke, and I’ve had a non tilt Pendolino lose only about 6-7 mins from Glasgow-Lancaster, so time difference is not that great between tilt and non tilt, but I enjoy tilt so always try avoid non tilt pendo’s, wish I’d been able to be on the APT when its was running, once went to Preston and took non stop train to Euston which could have been an APT, but alas was an 87 and Mk2’s.

That's perfectly possible the Non stop special achieved a start to pass of 62 minutes. I was talking mainly about scheduled services. Having analysed the difference between tilt and non-tilt, i believe the benefits are a smoother speed profile and less acceleration braking. and subsequent fuel/maintenance costs. A bit like the time i blasted around a local road circuit getting to the 60mph limit as quickly as possible and maintaining it through the bends, and burned a fivers worth of fuel in 8 miles lol. The brakes took a hammering too!
No wonder the French went high-speed and dismissed tilt altogether! If only the millions wasted on APT / IET etc had been spent on HS2 years ago......

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The SRA once said they were going to "smooth out" the tilt speed profile over the fells, as a constant 110mph profile was preferable to a sawtooth 80-125mph.
But as far a I am aware, nothing has happened since the original tilt profile went in during TASS testing.
The odd thing is EPS differentials of only 5mph in places (80-85, say, around Grayrigg), and a fixed 80 over Shap and Beattock summits.
Not to mention no EPS at all between Acton Grange and Wigan, over some of the curviest sections of the WCML.

 

[Railperf]

That would have been good, but probably won't happen now -especially as other operators are using / ordering new trains without tilt capability for use on many parts of the WCML. Yes, i can never understand why some EPS speeds are much lower than others, rather than a blanket 20 to 25% higher across the board. There is no tilt or EPS speeds north of Carstairs either, though that maybe due to wanting to retain similarly timed paths over that sections for all trains.

 

[PAB]

Tilt on the WCML is from Queens Park area to Carstairs South Junction, with various bits where tilt is not allowed for gauging reasons etc, mostly after Warrington, The main bits where 8%.of tilt is used, are Berkhamstead, Linslade and reverse curves just after tunnel towards Bletchley, Wolverton, Weedon, Rugby, around Rugeley, Queensville Curve Stafford, then Preston-Oxenholme. Penrith South bound, Carlisle-Carstairs, for the following line speeds ill use 110/125[left hand Conventional and right hand the Tilt speed for Pendolinos] heading North bound direction,sometimes the speed differs between North bound and South bound for various reasons:

Queens park-willesden area 80-90/100-105
Willesden area-bushey 90-110/105-125
Bushey-Watford North tunnel 110
Watford North tunnel-Weedon Curves 110/125
Weedon curves 100/120
Weedon Curves-Kilsby tunnel 110/125
Kilsby tunnel 110
Kilsby tunnel North Portal-Colwich Jct 75-110/125
Colwich Jct 50
Colwich Jct-queensville Curve. 90/100
Queensville Curve 75/85
Queensville Curve-Crewe 75-110/85-125
Crewe 80
Crewe Coal Yard-Acton Grange. 110/125
Acton Grange-Coppull area. 80-90
Coppull area-Farington-Jct. 110/125
Preston 35.

The best tilt sections north of Preston are Preston-Oxenholme, Between Oxenholme and Carlisle the best bits are Shap and Tebay area south bound, Penrith south bound 95 EPS, north of Carlisle there re some decent tilt sections, in good scenery until Carstairs then its normal speed to Glasgow Central.

Tilt on the WCML is from Queens Park area to Carstairs South Junction, with various bits where tilt is not allowed for gauging reasons etc, mostly after Warrington, The main bits where 8%.of tilt is used, are Berkhamstead, Linslade and reverse curves just after tunnel towards Bletchley, Wolverton, Weedon, Rugby, around Rugeley, Queensville Curve Stafford, then Preston-Oxenholme. Penrith South bound, Carlisle-Carstairs, for the following line speeds ill use 110/125[left hand Conventional and right hand the Tilt speed for Pendolinos] heading North bound direction,sometimes the speed differs between North bound and South bound for various reasons:

Queens park-willesden area 80-90/100-105
Willesden area-bushey 90-110/105-125
Bushey-Watford North tunnel 110
Watford North tunnel-Weedon Curves 110/125
Weedon curves 100/120
Weedon Curves-Kilsby tunnel 110/125
Kilsby tunnel 110
Kilsby tunnel North Portal-Colwich Jct 75-110/125
Colwich Jct 50
Colwich Jct-queensville Curve. 90/100
Queensville Curve 75/85
Queensville Curve-Crewe 75-110/85-125
Crewe 80
Crewe Coal Yard-Acton Grange. 110/125
Acton Grange-Coppull area. 80-90
Coppull area-Farington-Jct. 110/125
Preston 35.

The best tilt sections north of Preston are Preston-Oxenholme, Between Oxenholme and Carlisle the best bits are Shap and Tebay area south bound, Penrith south bound 95 EPS, north of Carlisle there re some decent tilt sections, in good scenery until Carstairs then its normal speed to Glasgow Central.

Cambsy. Great detail. Take it your a loco driver. Much obliged for such detail. Best regards, PAB

 

[cambsy]

I have wondered too why Carstairs-Glasgow is non EPS, probably due to what Railperf said, timing trains on a 2 track railway with a lot of suburban stopping trains, from my understanding the lower EPS speeds or non tilt sections are due to gauging, closeness of tracks, transition of curves etc, don’t know what it would take to make Warrington-Wigan a tilt section, if one wants to see in detail the EPS speeds from London to Glasgow then there is downloadable track diagrams from network rail covering the WCML and rest of the uk, well worth a read, very interesting.

 

[cambsy]

I’m not a loco driver (wish I was), I just downloaded track diagrams from Network Rail, which show line speeds as well, then I posted them as simple as could, some of it too complicated to convey in written form.

You will see if you download the track diagrams, they are fascinating to read, well worth the hassle to download.

 

[swaldman]

No wonder the French went high-speed and dismissed tilt altogether!

Wheras the Japanese did that, but then added tilt back in on their newer stock to go even faster! Oddly I do feel a bit sick on those, and not on Pendalinos - possibly the Japanese ones tilt a little too much!

 

[a_c_skinner]

Just to add (needlessly) to this thread as a semi regular on the WCML, a fine day, a Voyager ideally, and Carstairs to Lancaster (for Arnside in my case) is a super ride, knocks spots off any of Lancaster to Euston

Andrew

 

[cambsy]

In terms of scenery, north of Lancaster is pretty good, and a Pendolino being pushed hard is always good fun, but for continuous high speed running and highest average speeds, the Crewe-London section can give start to stop speeds, with clear run of the 113mph mark, one of the best trains to time is the 18.47 Liverpool-Euston, with a Stafford-Watford timing of 63 mins which gives a 110mph average speed, but can be done in about 61 mins on good day giving average speed of about 114mph.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Just to add (needlessly) to this thread as a semi regular on the WCML, a fine day, a Voyager ideally, and Carstairs to Lancaster (for Arnside in my case) is a super ride, knocks spots off any of Lancaster to Euston

Andrew

EPS isn't just about tilt, it's also about track forces and rate of change of cant, cant deficiency and tilt. plus restrictions caused by OLE wire gradient, safe over-run distances, signal sighting and (a few) structure clearance issues.

The reason the straights aren't 125mph r foall trains is because the EPS (paid for by the WCRM progect) was only provided for the (then) new Virgin trains; 125mph all trains benefits everyone, so Mr Virgin ejected his toys ...

"WCML curve d'Or" for me is the Hayfell / Lambrigg / Grayrigg complex - some of my finest work.

 

[a_c_skinner]

so Mr Virgin ejected his toys ...

I was going to say "you jest" but I know you don't. I strongly suspect (actually pretty certain) that there are lots of places where non tilt 125mph vehicles could run at 125mph with acceptable lateral forces.

 

[The Planner]

And HS2 will be all over this issue in spades expecting this to be looked at.

 

[cambsy]

I think while there are stretches you could run at 125mph non tilt, there are too many curves that you couldn’t and you would have a saw tooth speed profile, tilt also evens out the speed profile between Crewe-London, you wouldn’t have say Watford North tunnel-Weedon at 125mph continuous if were running 125 non tilt, there are restrictive curves at Berkhamstead 100mph, Linslade 90 , Weedon 100 to name a few, as as u go further north Atherstone 75mph, Litchfield 105, Tamworth 105, then more and more restrictions further north you go. The fastest BR pr tilt timings London-Glasgow was the Royal Scot, 90+mk3, 110mph Preston-Oxenholme-Carlisle 4hrs 47 mins, now with 6 stops it’s standard 4hrs 31 mins, and the post APT record is 3hrs 55 mins non stop, APT did it 3hrs 52 in the 80’s.

 

[route101]

What amazes me, is that tilt is supposed to allow you to travel through the curves at up to 25% faster than a normal train without causing discomfort to passengers and throwing possessions around the passenger saloons. But the sections where tilt is activated are so relatively short, that the time saving by running at the higher EPS speeds over the 104 miles from Glasgow to Carlisle only amounts to about 2 or 3 minutes maximum. I believe the fastest Pendolino's have achieved a 64 minute timing, whereas i was once on a 221 Voyager (tilt disabled or faulty) that ran at non EPS speeds and did the journey in a tad over 67 minutes. I think a Class 87 hauled train has also achieved 67 minutes wish.
To be honest there don't appear to be any technical reasons why a lot of the straighter sections of track could not be increased to 125mph non EPS, and that would decrease the difference between tilt and non-tilt journey times
But maybe the TOC's and Network rail looked at the additional costs - wear and tear to track and train plus increased energy costs in creating a speed profile that would see higher speeds up to 125mph on the straight or lightly curved track, while maintaining the non EPS speeds round the curves as present.
From a passenger point of view - i do wish the Pendolini had much taller windows - i notice the latest Italian ETR600 and 610 Pendolini do have larger Voyager style Windows. And i can admit to having suffered the dreaded 'tilt nausea', where you have been reading a book or checking your phone and then look up and out of the window to see the scenery banked at an acute angle - whereas your head is telling you it shouldn't be.

I dont really notice the tilt so much . Though i noticed when i had my eyes shut and it was dark outside on a pendo . Id thought the train had stopped but when i opened my eyes we were still moving , this made feel nauseous!

 

[a_c_skinner]

there are too many curves that you couldn’t

Perhaps, but I suspect only a modest relaxation in permissible lateral forces would tip (ha!) the balance, a level that everyone would soon get used to.