Two way signals London Underground

[mawallace]

I've noticed that at the end of many of the underground station platforms there's a signal, red, which is in the opposite direction to the normal direction of travel.

Does the underground have two way running functionality and is it used.

The signals were at London Kings cross and oxford circus .

I know there are some stations were there must be two way running, such as at terminals etc but I don't understand why stations such as kings cross or oxford circus would have them

 

[notverydeep]

While there are some 'wrong' direction routes over crossovers, there isn't bi-directional capability across the bulk of the plain line sections. Most Platforms have a fixed red light to mitigate the risk of a wrong direction departure when a Train Operator is sent to take over a train that has ended up having to be left at somewhere where there would not normally be crew changes or reversals...

 

[choochoochoo]

I've noticed that at the end of many of the underground station platforms there's a signal, red, which is in the opposite direction to the normal direction of travel.

Does the underground have two way running functionality and is it used.

The signals were at London Kings cross and oxford circus .

I know there are some stations were there must be two way running, such as at terminals etc but I don't understand why stations such as kings cross or oxford circus would have them

I dislike boarding at unfamiliar LU station platforms with signals at both ends of platforms. I never know which direction the train is going to be coming from, so can't position myself to be at the front/rear of the train to make efficient interchanges.

Wish they had an arrow to show which direction the train will be traveling.

 

[Beebman]

While there are some 'wrong' direction routes over crossovers, there isn't bi-directional capability across the bulk of the plain line sections. Most Platforms have a fixed red light to mitigate the risk of a wrong direction departure when a Train Operator is sent to take over a train that has ended up having to be left at somewhere where there would not normally be crew changes or reversals...

I believe that many of these fixed red lights were installed as a result of an incident at Camden Town in 2007 when crew and passengers were swapped between northbound trains after a misrouting, and the driver taking over one of the trains departed in the wrong direction. The RAIB report of the incident is here:

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/tube-train-driven-in-the-wrong-direction-camden-town-northern-line

 

[Class 170101]

I've noticed that at the end of many of the underground station platforms there's a signal, red, which is in the opposite direction to the normal direction of travel.

Does the underground have two way running functionality and is it used.

The signals were at London Kings cross and oxford circus .

Certain platforms are Bi-Directional but mainly for changing ends. Kings Cross on the Circle Line, the inner rail allows departure eastbound according to Quail. The Piccadilly Line allows departure from the eastbound platform towards Acton Town.

Ax far as I know its immediate crossing back to the correct running line.

As far as I can see at Oxford Circus there are no crossovers on any of the three tube lines at this station.

 

[philthetube]

As I understand it it is any platform where there is any possibility of a driver ending up at the wrong end of the train

Camden is a good example as sometimes crews are changed over because the crew and stock need to end up in different places,

Wish they had an arrow to show which direction the train will be traveling.

It is just as difficult for a driver to know which way a train is going at some points.

 

[choochoochoo]

It is just as difficult for a driver to know which way a train is going at some points.

Saw it at Warren Street on the Victoria Line Northbound. Do stock and crew really go different directions from there ?

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Doesn’t Piccadilly line northbound (yes I know the line description is Eastbound) at King’s Cross also have the connection back to the Northern Line which needs signals?

 

[Seaeagle]

Saw it at Warren Street on the Victoria Line Northbound. Do stock and crew really go different directions from there ?

Yes, there is a south to north crossover at Warren Street direct from the platform. To do the move north to south, the train has to shunt forward into the tunnel, but from the south it can be doe directly from the southbound platform.

 

[Class 170101]

Doesn’t Piccadilly line northbound (yes I know the line description is Eastbound) at King’s Cross also have the connection back to the Northern Line which needs signals?

Trailing reverse I think. though how much use it gets now I guess is open to question.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

A remember it being used once at about 10pm one evening maybe 30 years ago when an engineering train came in and reversed.

 

[Deepgreen]

I dislike boarding at unfamiliar LU station platforms with signals at both ends of platforms. I never know which direction the train is going to be coming from, so can't position myself to be at the front/rear of the train to make efficient interchanges.

Wish they had an arrow to show which direction the train will be traveling.

It's generally pretty obvious where the active signal will usually be clear (green). If you know the interchanges' positions so well, it's surprising you can't work out the direction of travel. The headwalls often have equipment mounted there, too.

 

[Belperpete]

I seem to recall NR putting some of these wrong-road red lights in at LT's request when they resignalled the line to Richmond.

 

[Surreytraveller]

While there are some 'wrong' direction routes over crossovers, there isn't bi-directional capability across the bulk of the plain line sections. Most Platforms have a fixed red light to mitigate the risk of a wrong direction departure when a Train Operator is sent to take over a train that has ended up having to be left at somewhere where there would not normally be crew changes or reversals...

That's not the reason, although you're close. There was an incident on the Piccadilly Line at I believe Kings Cross in the late 80s/early 90s, where a train had to reverse, but the driver was confused at which end of the station the crossover is, so changed ends and nearly drove the train into the one that was waiting at the signal behind.
After this incident, permanent fixed red lights were placed at each location where it was possible for a similar mistake to be made

 

[Belperpete]

That's not the reason, although you're close. There was an incident on the Piccadilly Line at I believe Kings Cross in the late 80s/early 90s, where a train had to reverse, but the driver was confused at which end of the station the crossover is, so changed ends and nearly drove the train into the one that was waiting at the signal behind.
After this incident, permanent fixed red lights were placed at each location where it was possible for a similar mistake to be made

The RAIB report on the 2007 incident mentions the earlier Kings Cross incident (as well as a number of others), yet makes no mention of any program for installing fixed red lights.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The RAIB report on the 2007 incident mentions the earlier Kings Cross incident (as well as a number of others), yet makes no mention of any program for installing fixed red lights.

I remember them being installed after the Kings Cross incident. I've tried to find a website to link to, but as it was in the days before the Internet and the RAIB existed, I haven't been able to find any online information about them. Perhaps after the Camden Town incident they increased the number of locations where they were installed?

 

[PeterY]

There are some fixed red signals on the Watford branch of the Met at Croxley and the slow lines at Northwood.

 

[moggie]

I seem to recall NR putting some of these wrong-road red lights in at LT's request when they resignalled the line to Richmond.

You're probably not wrong there.
A way back in time BR were asked to put Fixed Red (opposing in each direction) in at Wembley Central Stn on the Eus-Wat DC line for LUL drivers working Bakerloo trains to / from Harrow and Wealdstone. There were no signalled routes towards them or from them and no such requirement existed under BR Signalling Principles. The principle provided by LUL to us at BR was to prevent drivers from turning back their train against normal direction of traffic when being told to terminate short of destination in perturbation situations (there was a ground frame facilitating this purpose although LUL would have needed a BR Ops person to operate it). The rationale followed such an incident occurring within LUL's operation although I no longer recall where.
Unofficially the local term for them was the 'LUL Idiot Signals'. That was back in the late 80's / early 90's.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Idiot signals LOL

 

[Jack Barry]

You're probably not wrong there.
A way back in time BR were asked to put Fixed Red (opposing in each direction) in at Wembley Central Stn on the Eus-Wat DC line for LUL drivers working Bakerloo trains to / from Harrow and Wealdstone. There were no signalled routes towards them or from them and no such requirement existed under BR Signalling Principles. The principle provided by LUL to us at BR was to prevent drivers from turning back their train against normal direction of traffic when being told to terminate short of destination in perturbation situations (there was a ground frame facilitating this purpose although LUL would have needed a BR Ops person to operate it). The rationale followed such an incident occurring within LUL's operation although I no longer recall where.
Unofficially the local term for them was the 'LUL Idiot Signals'. That was back in the late 80's / early 90's.

Both of those red lights were given signal numbers IIRC.

 

[BS56]

They are WS39 up line & WS40 down line . The down signal is interesting as its number ends with "0" most likely because they used up all other spare numbers however when the line was resignalled in 1989 ? zero was not used in the original numbering ie no 10, 20 ,30 etc... can anyone explain why ?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Both of those red lights were given signal numbers IIRC.

I imagine so that it can be easily identified if a fault needs to be reported

 

[moggie]

They are WS39 up line & WS40 down line . The down signal is interesting as its number ends with "0" most likely because they used up all other spare numbers however when the line was resignalled in 1989 ? zero was not used in the original numbering ie no 10, 20 ,30 etc... can anyone explain why ?

As I recall it was LMR Regional S&T (good) practice which designated '0' (number) as a non-preferred character for signal identification purposes as it could also be confused with 'O' (letter). It's use wasn't prohibited but usually avoided. As observed, when the 'idiot' signals were provided a short time after the original (re) signalling installation was commissioned (1988) these were the most convenient numbers available in the local area numbering sequence.
The fact they are fixed at red and were intended to serve no other purpose but to remind LUL drivers in unfamiliar situations of which direction to travel in turnback scenario still meant they were designated as main running signals under BR Principles. Perhaps their (limited) purpose has changed over the years?