Unexpectedly Backwards to Birmingham on Avanti West Coast

[ejstubbs]

We travelled down to Birmingham for a short citybreak just before Easter. We booked on Avanti West Coast Haymarket to New Street and return, and all went pretty well. We were 14 minutes late into HYM on the way home but otherwise there were no real problems with the service.

I had carefully selected forward-facing seats for both journeys, and this was confirmed in the booking e-mail from AWC. However, on boarding the train to Birmingham, we discovered that our reserved seats (13 and 14 in coach F) were in fact backward-facing. Although normally I don't mind backward-facing seats, on a Pendolino I find that combined with the tilting it can give me a bit of a headache. Overall, though, it wasn't a major issue.

I am puzzled, though, as to why AWC don't seem to know which way round their coaches are arranged. The train definitely arrived first class leading into HYM which I believe is the normal way round, so I don't think it had been turned. Thinking about it, our sets were in the rearward half of the coach, when I might have expected them to be numbered from the leading end, which does make me think maybe the coach had been removed/replaced and put back in the set the wrong way round.

So I'm still wondering what might have caused this: does AWC simply not know which way round their coaches are, had the set been shuffled, or could there be another explanation?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I've never seen a Pendolino with the "front/back facing" being the wrong way round except where the set itself is wrong way round (1st facing away from London).
If you can say the date and time it should be possible to find the unit number.

 

[Towers]

Various possibilities; plenty of TOCs have trains which routinely ‘turn’ during the course of their scheduled diagrams, often things are carefully planned to get them turned back again but of course plans don’t always work out! If there aren’t any booked workings at Avanti which cause it then it might have been due to a diversion of some sort having happened which left the train facing the ‘wrong’ way around, or it might have been some sort of out-of-the-ordinary visit to a depot or facility for whatever reason - or they might have done it just to wind everyone up!

 

[KNN]

It can depend on whether it's a refurbished set or not as well. They have a slightly different layout and the planned set might have changed between your booking and journey.

 

[rg177]

If you weren't happy with your seat - you could find unreserved seats in C (nine-car sets) or C/G/U (11-car sets).

Refurbishment has only removed some end seats and replaced them with luggage racks. Seats haven't been moved.

 

[ejstubbs]

If you can say the date and time it should be possible to find the unit number.

It was the 12:58 from Haymarket on Tuesday 26th March. Realtimetrains says the unit number was 390047.

If you weren't happy with your seat - you could find unreserved seats in C (nine-car sets) or C/G/U (11-car sets).

I did go looking but the only pairs of forward-facing airline seats left unoccupied, unsurprisingly, were the ones with no window view. (We're not keen on seats around a table simply because you never know who you might end up sitting facing, and we've had one or two non-relaxing experiences in the past - sufficient to prefer airline seats if they'e available.)

 

[janb]

I am puzzled, though, as to why AWC don't seem to know which way round their coaches are arranged. The train definitely arrived first class leading into HYM which I believe is the normal way round, so I don't think it had been turned.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your explanation but that's the issue there. First Class should be at front going south, at the rear going north. F13 and F14 are definitely forward facing on a seat diagram travelling south.

 

[ejstubbs]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your explanation but that's the issue there. First Class should be at front going south, at the rear going north. F13 and F14 are definitely forward facing on a seat diagram travelling south.

Apologies: it was first class leading when it arrived at HYM from Waverley i.e. southbound. Seats F13 and F14 were definitely backward-facing on that train - we were sat in them for four and a bit hours!

 

[yorkie]

Edit: ignore this.

 

[andythebrave]

First class at the North end is reverse formation, so that explains why.

But first class leading on arrival at Haymarket as described above is at the south end so there must be some other explanation.

 

[800001]

First class at the North end is reverse formation, so that explains why.

The poster states first class was leading at Haymarket and the train was heading to London, so the set was correct formation ie first class leading.

 

[ejstubbs]

First class at the North end is reverse formation, so that explains why.

See my reply to janb above. (I did say in my OP that we were travelling Haymarket to New Street and that we found our seats were backward-facing on the train to Birmingham.)

 

[kenthomson]

We travelled down to Birmingham for a short citybreak just before Easter. We booked on Avanti West Coast Haymarket to New Street and return, and all went pretty well. We were 14 minutes late into HYM on the way home but otherwise there were no real problems with the service.

I had carefully selected forward-facing seats for both journeys, and this was confirmed in the booking e-mail from AWC. However, on boarding the train to Birmingham, we discovered that our reserved seats (13 and 14 in coach F) were in fact backward-facing. Although normally I don't mind backward-facing seats, on a Pendolino I find that combined with the tilting it can give me a bit of a headache. Overall, though, it wasn't a major issue.

I am puzzled, though, as to why AWC don't seem to know which way round their coaches are arranged. The train definitely arrived first class leading into HYM which I believe is the normal way round, so I don't think it had been turned. Thinking about it, our sets were in the rearward half of the coach, when I might have expected them to be numbered from the leading end, which does make me think maybe the coach had been removed/replaced and put back in the set the wrong way round.

So I'm still wondering what might have caused this: does AWC simply not know which way round their coaches are, had the set been shuffled, or could there be another explanation?

I travelled on the 14.38 Birmingham International to Glasgow on 15 March. There were several announcements where it was mentioned that the train was running in reverse formation. I never got the chance to ask the conductor why that was. I think the train down was the same (with First Class at the Glasgow end) though no announcements were made. Curious if anyone knows why.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I travelled on the 14.38 Birmingham International to Glasgow on 15 March. There were several announcements where it was mentioned that the train was running in reverse formation. I never got the chance to ask the conductor why that was. I think the train down was the same (with First Class at the Glasgow end) though no announcements were made. Curious if anyone knows why.

It's possible to reverse a train by running it into New St one way and back out the other. That's about the only way it can happen on the WCML.

 

[MCR247]

It's possible to reverse a train by running it into New St one way and back out the other. That's about the only way it can happen on the WCML.

I’m not certain (never the best way to start a reply!) but I think it can happen in Scotland too if a set finishes at Edinburgh, goes ECS to Polmadie but the next day goes onto a diagram that goes ECS to Glasgow Central

 

[InOban]

I remember another thread where it required to run, "backwards " because the wipers at one end weren't working.

 

[ejstubbs]

I remember another thread where it required to run, "backwards " because the wipers at one end weren't working.

Which reminds me of a thread I started back in October 2017 about a KGX-EDB VTEC service I was on which reversed at Newcastle due to a faulty driver's door: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/reversals-at-newcastle.155498/#post-3150932

However, in the instance I related at the start of this thread the train definitely wasn't reversed. Coach F was towards the rear of the train as it should be - we walked down the platform towards the Haymarket Tunnels to get to it - but the coach itself was the 'wrong' way round. Likely we'll never know how or why that came about, though.

Thanks to those above who confirmed that our seats should definitely have been forward-facing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, in the instance I related at the start of this thread the train definitely wasn't reversed. Coach F was towards the rear of the train as it should be - we walked down the platform towards the Haymarket Tunnels to get to it - but the coach itself was the 'wrong' way round. Likely we'll never know how or why that came about, though.

F is bang in the middle of an 11 car, or towards the front of a refurbished 9 car, not at the rear. Are you absolutely sure the whole set wasn't reversed?

 

[Taunton]

You were fortunate not to be on Edinburgh to Birmingham in pre-Pendolino days. Seats reserved facing forwards were indeed so leaving Edinburgh, but after a short run to Carstairs the train reversed and was added to the Glasgow portion. If you were one the one train that ran through to Bristol you got another reversal at Birmingham, so ended up as you started.

 

[SansHache]

The seating plan on coach F on a 9-car train is reversed relative to coach F on an 11-car train. I presume your original booking was made on an 11-car train but a 9-car was substituted on the day.
On 9-car 390047 coach F would be vehicle 69647.
On the 11-car trains the 696xx vehicle is coach G and coach F is the 689xx vehicle (one of the Additional Cars added in 2012).
Coaches G and U are missing on the 9-car trains.
Coach G was originally 1st Class on 9-car and 11-car trains. Coach G was converted to Standard Class on 9-car trains some years ago and was re-labelled coach F so seats could be reserved regardless of whether 9-car or 11-car.
During the latest refurbishment programme coach G has been converted to standard on 11-car trains but remains labelled as coach G as there is already a coach F on 11-cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seating plan on coach F on a 9-car train is reversed relative to coach F on an 11-car train.

Interesting - I didn't know that. The Avanti seating plans and their seat selector doesn't show that being the case either!

Why is that?

 

[SansHache]

When the 696xx vehicle on the 9-car trains (originally coach G, 1st Class) was converted to Standard Class it was renamed Coach F. This was to avoid Coach G being 1st Class on 11-car trains and Standard Class on 9-car trains.
The Standard Class interior on the converted 696xx vehicle was a copy of the interior on the existing F car on the 11-car trains (689xx) vehicle to allow seat reservations to be consistent on either 9-car or 11-car trains.
However, the orientation of the equipment on the 696xx vehicle (toilet, cubicles and underfloor equipment) is such that the seating plan is reversed compared to the 689xx vehicle. It was not possible to turn the vehicle around due to the position of jumper cables, in particular the power connections to the transformer.
When Virgin had separate seating plans for 9-car and 11-car trains I think this was shown on the layout. Now there is a single seating plan it is not apparent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. Didn't know any of that!

So once G is present in all trains post refurb and looks to be a mirror of F, will it perhaps be changed so that 9 cars are ABCDEGHJK which would solve the issue?

 

[Mag_seven]

Id suggest that all this stuff about reasons why the set could be in "reverse formation" are a red herring as we have established that the train was in correct formation i.e. with first class at the London end. The question that needs to be answered is why did the OP get the impression that coach F Seats 13 and 14 were forward facing?

we discovered that our reserved seats (13 and 14 in coach F) were in fact backward-facing i

 

[Bletchleyite]

Id suggest that all this stuff about reasons why the set could be in "reverse formation" are a red herring as we have established that the train was in correct formation i.e. with first class at the London end. The question that needs to be answered is why did the OP get the impression that coach F Seats 13 and 14 were forward facing?

Because the Avanti seating plan, including on their seat selector, incorrectly shows that F13/14 on 9 car sets are forward facing?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Id suggest that all this stuff about reasons why the set could be in "reverse formation" are a red herring as we have established that the train was in correct formation i.e. with first class at the London end. The question that needs to be answered is why did the OP get the impression that coach F Seats 13 and 14 were forward facing?

Err... because F is the opposite way round inside in a 9 car as opposed to an 11 car... as per SansHache's posts above?

 

[Mag_seven]

Because the Avanti seating plan, including on their seat selector, incorrectly shows that F13/14 on 9 car sets are forward facing?

Err... because F is the opposite way round inside in a 9 car as opposed to an 11 car... as per SansHache's posts above?

Fair enough.