United Counties in the 80's

[Herbie2478]

Hi,
Looking for some assistance from some more knowledgeable than I. Am currently part of a team of modellers updating a layout based on Charwelton, in Northamptonshire, imagining that the GC main line had not been lifted.
My question is to do with bus services which may have passed through the village during the early to mid eighties. I believe that NBC United Counties was the bus company but does anyone have information on the route numbers, destinations shown and the more common bus types from that era. As far as I can see, in common with most NBC companies of the time it is likely to be Leyland National Mk1/2 and/or the Bristol VR series.
Thanks in advance.

 

[spuddie]

United Counties were certainly big Bristol VR users as the most common vehicle but also a number of Nationals mk1/2 like you said. In ready to run model form you would also have the ECW bodied Leyland Olympian being new in the early 80's.

 

[A0]

Hi,
Looking for some assistance from some more knowledgeable than I. Am currently part of a team of modellers updating a layout based on Charwelton, in Northamptonshire, imagining that the GC main line had not been lifted.
My question is to do with bus services which may have passed through the village during the early to mid eighties. I believe that NBC United Counties was the bus company but does anyone have information on the route numbers, destinations shown and the more common bus types from that era. As far as I can see, in common with most NBC companies of the time it is likely to be Leyland National Mk1/2 and/or the Bristol VR series.
Thanks in advance.

Not sure UC would have been the main or only company serving Charwelton - I'd have thought Midland Red would also have served that area as well - MR had depots in Banbury, Rugby and I believe at one time Daventry.

Turning back to UCOC - it depends on when in the 80s you're thinking of - but there would have been a mix of Leyland Nationals (1 & 2), Bristol REs which UCOC had until the mid 80s, Bristol VRs (of various vintages), Olympians arrived in the early-80s (UCOC were an early user of these) and possibly some of the various 'lightweights' they'd obtained in the 70s may have still been around - Willowbrook bodied Bedfords, Duple bus bodied Ford R1014s. In coach terms UC had a mix of Leopards with Plaxton and ECW bodies as well as some with the Willowbrook 003 body.

Might be worth dropping the Rushden Historic Transport society a line - although a bit further to the east, they may have somebody who knows a bit more about UC's history around that time.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Olympians arrived in the early-80s (UCOC were an early user of these)

I'm no expert on the area that you're modelling, but if you are looking for historical accuracy I would avoid using olympians. UCOC had a batch in 1981 numbered 601-620. 601-610 were allocated to Bedford and 611-620 were allocated to Luton. They were mainly used on routes 100/101 {Bedford} and 38 {Luton} though not exclusively used on these routes they were generally not used on country routes due to their slow acceleration and low top speed.

 

[86211]

Charwelton was served by Amos coaches of Eydon. The route was Rugby - Daventry - Woodford Halse - Banbury. The route later passed to Midland Red South. United Counties never operated west of Daventry.

 

[AndyW33]

I was a UCOC manager in the late 1970s and I don't recall us serving Charwelton at all at that period. There was a United Counties depot at Daventry with about 10 vehicles, effectively a large outstation of Northampton, and Midland Red never based vehicles in the town.
In terms of the UC fleet, I don't remember any Ford R1014s with bus bodies at any time. There was a handful of Fords with grant coach bodies inherited from the bus operations of Court Line, that remained on home ground at Luton, but all the other lightweights were the Willowbrook bodied Bedfords and some rather older Bristol LHs. Yes to ECW bodied RELL6G single deck buses (with flat fronts), RELH6Gs in both Dual Purpose and coach versions, a small number of RELH6L/Plaxton coaches and eventually quite a few Leopard coaches, assorted Leyland Nationals, and the VRs. All of these were on Northampton's allocation and so could turn up at Daventry (the coaches only very rarely).
It was Midland Red that went in for lightweight Ford service buses in a big way.

 

[A0]

I was a UCOC manager in the late 1970s and I don't recall us serving Charwelton at all at that period. There was a United Counties depot at Daventry with about 10 vehicles, effectively a large outstation of Northampton, and Midland Red never based vehicles in the town.
In terms of the UC fleet, I don't remember any Ford R1014s with bus bodies at any time. There was a handful of Fords with grant coach bodies inherited from the bus operations of Court Line, that remained on home ground at Luton, but all the other lightweights were the Willowbrook bodied Bedfords and some rather older Bristol LHs. Yes to ECW bodied RELL6G single deck buses (with flat fronts), RELH6Gs in both Dual Purpose and coach versions, a small number of RELH6L/Plaxton coaches and eventually quite a few Leopard coaches, assorted Leyland Nationals, and the VRs. All of these were on Northampton's allocation and so could turn up at Daventry (the coaches only very rarely).
It was Midland Red that went in for lightweight Ford service buses in a big way.

The Ford/Duples were in the OVVnnR registration range and OVV59R is preserved

https://www.flickr.com/photos/51738247@N03/26735986567

 

[A0]

Charwelton was served by Amos coaches of Eydon. The route was Rugby - Daventry - Woodford Halse - Banbury. The route later passed to Midland Red South. United Counties never operated west of Daventry.

I think you mean west FROM Daventry as UC had routes to Banbury and Oxford, both of which are west of Daventry.

 

[AndyW33]

The Ford/Duples were in the OVVnnR registration range and OVV59R is preserved

https://www.flickr.com/photos/51738247@N03/26735986567

Fair enough, must be faulty memory after 30 years as I would have been around at the time they were delivered, though admittedly by then I was in Milton Keynes where we tried to avoid lightweights as far as possible as they didn't really suit the urban routes at all, and the rural routes were steadily declining by then.

 

[xydancer]

Charwelton was indeed served by Geoff Amos coaches of Eydon and before them, KW Coaches of Daventry, but the main route was Eydon - Woodford Halse - Daventry. The extension to a Rugby-Banbury service came much much later (marketed as the Great Central Connection).

Looking at a 1986 timetable, I have, the village had around 5 return journeys each way Mon-Fri (three on Saturday), plus extra Daventry market day services, plus Thursday & Saturday only runs, which I suspect ran through to Banbury where it would have been market day. There were also shift workers' buses to Daventry and Rugby.

The nearest United Counties ever got was Badby, a couple of miles to the north, which had an irregular service to Daventry and Northampton. For a very short while, UC also ran a Daventry - Hellidon route, and a Daventry - Badby - Newnham - Daventry circular.

I have timetables for most of the 1980s - and a KW Coaches one from 1958. If you would like copies, PM me and I'll see what I can scan/photo.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm no expert on the area that you're modelling, but if you are looking for historical accuracy I would avoid using olympians. UCOC had a batch in 1981 numbered 601-620. 601-610 were allocated to Bedford and 611-620 were allocated to Luton. They were mainly used on routes 100/101 {Bedford} and 38 {Luton} though not exclusively used on these routes they were generally not used on country routes due to their slow acceleration and low top speed.

Weren’t some of those later employed on Coachlinks services? Were they modified?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Weren’t some of those later employed on Coachlinks services? Were they modified?

lol yes 601 was "modified" in that it was reseated and, IIRC, fitted with a 6XLCT engine... opened out to it's full legal ability at the time... unfortunately it wasn't a great success and, I believe, the drivers would refuse to drive it on even a slightly breezy day due to the effects of side winds on the handling. I only travelled on it once and it went like a scalded cat and I certainly noticed a pronounced sway, though not any worse than the LRC's used by Green Line on the 757. For the record it was usually used on the X1 Bedford- Luton

 

[Busaholic]

Didn't United Counties run some Routemasters, on route 101 iirc in the Bedford area?

 

[CatfordCat]

Didn't United Counties run some Routemasters, on route 101 iirc in the Bedford area?

Yes - and in Corby (mostly on route 1) although this was late 80s after deregulation.

There's a United Counties photos group on Flickr here - may be worth a look.

Of course, if this layout is based on a 'what if' situation, then maybe some of the settlements on the GC line could have become 'new towns'...

 

[A0]

lol yes 601 was "modified" in that it was reseated and, IIRC, fitted with a 6XLCT engine... opened out to it's full legal ability at the time... unfortunately it wasn't a great success and, I believe, the drivers would refuse to drive it on even a slightly breezy day due to the effects of side winds on the handling. I only travelled on it once and it went like a scalded cat and I certainly noticed a pronounced sway, though not any worse than the LRC's used by Green Line on the 757. For the record it was usually used on the X1 Bedford- Luton

I think the LRCs had a longer wheelbase though which would have improved their stability against a shorter wheelbase bus Olympian.

For a time a couple of LRCs did time on the 724 as well - which made for a nice change from the more regular Tiger / Plaxtons.

 

[A0]

Of course, if this layout is based on a 'what if' situation, then maybe some of the settlements on the GC line could have become 'new towns'...

The same thought occurred to me - perhaps one for the OP to consider a couple of 'what ifs':

A UC "local" using Nationals / REs between Daventry and Banbury or Daventry and Towcester.
A Midland Red "local" between Rugby and Banbury again using Nationals.
Perhaps a Midland Red "Midland Express" coach on an Oxford - Leicester service.

After all, had the GC survived who knows what else might have happened?

 

[AndyW33]

City of Oxford Motor Services was very keen on extending out of its fairly small heartland by operating joint services with fellow NBC companies. Oxford to Northampton was a good example which only appeared in the 1970s once COMS and UCOC both belonged to NBC.
So the hypothetical Oxford-Leicester service might well have had a City of Oxford vehicle operating alternate journeys - and might even have started sooner as Midland Red and COMS were both BET group companies. As long as the new through routes picked up peak journeys in and out of the large towns/cities at either end, there was no additional peak vehicle requirement, and at least in the 70s and 80s the additional traffic generated more than covered the additional mileage costs. Of course the Competition Commission frowns on this sort of thing nowadays , so the journey opportunities vanished.

 

[Herbie2478]

Charwelton was indeed served by Geoff Amos coaches of Eydon and before them, KW Coaches of Daventry, but the main route was Eydon - Woodford Halse - Daventry. The extension to a Rugby-Banbury service came much much later (marketed as the Great Central Connection).

Looking at a 1986 timetable, I have, the village had around 5 return journeys each way Mon-Fri (three on Saturday), plus extra Daventry market day services, plus Thursday & Saturday only runs, which I suspect ran through to Banbury where it would have been market day. There were also shift workers' buses to Daventry and Rugby.

The nearest United Counties ever got was Badby, a couple of miles to the north, which had an irregular service to Daventry and Northampton. For a very short while, UC also ran a Daventry - Hellidon route, and a Daventry - Badby - Newnham - Daventry circular.

I have timetables for most of the 1980s - and a KW Coaches one from 1958. If you would like copies, PM me and I'll see what I can scan/photo.

Thank you for the replies. Is anyone able to post images of a Geoff Amos coach from around 84-86 period to allow us to hopefully represent a bus service on the layout?

xydancer - I've tried to PM but the site isn't allowing that for some reason (I am a philistine when it comes to computers though).

 

[GusB]

Thank you for the replies. Is anyone able to post images of a Geoff Amos coach from around 84-86 period to allow us to hopefully represent a bus service on the layout?

xydancer - I've tried to PM but the site isn't allowing that for some reason (I am a philistine when it comes to computers though).

Go to buslistsontheweb.co.uk then go to search (owner), type Amos into the box and you'll get a list of vehicles that were new to that operation. It has little coloured dots that will link you to Google image search and Flickr search for the individual vehicle you want to see.

 

[CatfordCat]

Thank you for the replies. Is anyone able to post images of a Geoff Amos coach from around 84-86 period to allow us to hopefully represent a bus service on the layout?

A few on Flickr - e.g. this line up at their base, this Bedford at Rugby

 

[A0]

A few on Flickr - e.g. this line up at their base, this Bedford at Rugby

And that depot line up shows, quite nicely, why you're going to have to take some artistic licence.....

Caetano bodied coaches were never that common, which means that from a modelling point of view they don't exist as diecast models, yet that's the majority of the vehicles in that shot. On the other one, again Duple Dominant bus bodies weren't that common - very few NBC companies used them and back in the 80s they were the biggest buyers of buses.

I would suggest buying something like one of these and repainting it

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EFE-2950...407443&hash=item1a560ec641:g:yaoAAOSwDyBbNUQy

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-76-EFE...200080?hash=item362c1afc90:g:2TcAAOSwJWFaiD3W

most companies ran at least one Plaxton bodied coach - in fact it looks like an Elite towards the end of the depot line up.

The others you could buy would be an ECW Bristol RE e.g. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EFE-2520...500577&hash=item3635252360:g:c5oAAOSwdUVa~bdc or an Alexander Y type https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EFE-2250...034022&hash=item1a54c7e92a:g:BqcAAOSwtalbLVXY


on the grounds that these were arriving second hand in the fleets of independents as NBC / SBG companies were withdrawing them.

Just prepare yourself that should you be exhibiting your layout in the future, some rivet-counter will come along to tell you that the vehicles are all wrong.......

 

[Herbie2478]

And that depot line up shows, quite nicely, why you're going to have to take some artistic licence.....

Caetano bodied coaches were never that common, which means that from a modelling point of view they don't exist as diecast models, yet that's the majority of the vehicles in that shot. On the other one, again Duple Dominant bus bodies weren't that common - very few NBC companies used them and back in the 80s they were the biggest buyers of buses.

I would suggest buying something like one of these and repainting it

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EFE-2950...407443&hash=item1a560ec641:g:yaoAAOSwDyBbNUQy

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-76-EFE...200080?hash=item362c1afc90:g:2TcAAOSwJWFaiD3W

most companies ran at least one Plaxton bodied coach - in fact it looks like an Elite towards the end of the depot line up.

The others you could buy would be an ECW Bristol RE e.g. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EFE-2520...500577&hash=item3635252360:g:c5oAAOSwdUVa~bdc or an Alexander Y type https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EFE-2250...034022&hash=item1a54c7e92a:g:BqcAAOSwtalbLVXY


on the grounds that these were arriving second hand in the fleets of independents as NBC / SBG companies were withdrawing them.

Just prepare yourself that should you be exhibiting your layout in the future, some rivet-counter will come along to tell you that the vehicles are all wrong.......

We're always prepared for that eventuality. However by its very nature and the history of the GC, its all wrong, but...

 

[A0]

We're always prepared for that eventuality. However by its very nature and the history of the GC, its all wrong, but...

Well quite. But some, in their quest for perfection - or should that be their interpretation of perfection - seem to have forgotten 'Ars Gratia Artis'.......

 

[CatfordCat]

We're always prepared for that eventuality. However by its very nature and the history of the GC, its all wrong, but...

And as I suggested previously, if the GC had stayed open, then the village would probably have developed more / more quickly than it did in reality, so in those circumstances, the bus services would also have developed.

In the pre deregulation early 80s, the existing operator would probably have had a chance to expand their services - although it could have got complicated. For example (from memory - of reading about it not being there) when the Clifton estate outside Nottingham was developed post-1945, it ended up with a hearing in front of the traffic commissioner, and Nottingham, West Bridgford and South Notts each ended up with a share of the main services (and think Barton got bits round the fringes) so the likes of United Counties or Midland Red getting involved would have been possible.

for the early 80s, the ex London Transport DMS was quite a popular choice for second hand buses. The second hand Leyland National / Y type Leopard / Greater Manchester Atlantean / Routemaster era tended to be after 1986.

 

[xydancer]

if the GC had stayed open, then the village would probably have developed more / more quickly than it did in reality, so in those circumstances, the bus services would also have developed

Very true, although I have my doubts about just how much. I feel a much more likely area for housing growth and station expansion would have been Braunston & Willoughby (the area is nice and flat, although the old station was on an embankment), which also has much better road links to Daventry. Plus, of course, not much further south, there's Woodford Halse and Brackley, which would likely now be several times the size they are.

 

[SCH117X]

In the pre deregulation early 80s, the existing operator would probably have had a chance to expand their services - although it could have got complicated. For example (from memory - of reading about it not being there) when the Clifton estate outside Nottingham was developed post-1945, it ended up with a hearing in front of the traffic commissioner, and Nottingham, West Bridgford and South Notts each ended up with a share of the main services (and think Barton got bits round the fringes) so the likes of United Counties or Midland Red getting involved would have been possible.

In the case of Clifton the estate lay alongside South Notts main route while the only access from the City passed over Trent Bridge through West Bridgford. The three way split of the main services via Trent Bridge to the estate only lasted until a new crossing of the River Trent was opened (Clifton Bridge) which provided a link completely within the City so all the City Transport operated services ran that way while South Notts and West Bridgford continued along the original route over Trent Bridge. That all changed in the late 60s when West Bridgford sold their bus operation to the City so City buses returned to the original route - annoyingly for too long both routes carried the same service numbers until the Clifton Bridge services were eventually renumbered. So in the case of Charwelton I would suggest it would probably have been unlikely to have involved UC and MR unless the traffic commissioners felt any increased GA services would absorb an extent of existing UC and MR custom although that could have been resolved by imposing a no pick up/ drop off limitation on the increased GA services.