• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Use of term "alternate" instead of "alternative"

Status
Not open for further replies.

westv

Established Member
Joined
29 Mar 2013
Messages
4,365
Moderator note: split from
Hull Station appears to be "cut off" from rail service activity at the moment according to the nationalrail.co.uk disruption page.
"The police dealing with an incident at Hull means that all lines are blocked. Hull station is closed to protect customers safety due to an unsafe environment in Hull City Centre and the surrounding areas near the station. Trains are unable to call at this station for customers to disembark. Trains will terminate and start at alternate stations where possible."
Have there been any other locations so far where rail operations have been impacted?
Alternate? Surely "alternative"??
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

GordonT

Member
Joined
26 May 2018
Messages
1,101
Yea, obviously. Someone has made a simple mistake whilst typing.
I think it's more that the American English practice of using "alternate" as a synonym for "alternative" has, like a great many other words, crept into acceptability in UK also.
 

800001

Established Member
Joined
24 Oct 2015
Messages
5,580
I think it's more that the American English practice of using "alternate" as a synonym for "alternative" has, like a great many other words, crept into acceptability in UK also.
I’ll stick with someone making a simple mistake, while trying to keep up todate with the disruption.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
5,253
Location
Somerset
I think it's more that the American English practice of using "alternate" as a synonym for "alternative" has, like a great many other words, crept into acceptability in UK also.
And unfortunately this is one which can definitely lead to confusion.
 

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
3,188
Location
London
I think it's more that the American English practice of using "alternate" as a synonym for "alternative" has, like a great many other words, crept into acceptability in UK also.

Hence causing confusion by removing a one-one link between words and meanings...

The two words have quite different meanings in UK English, and it's crazy to lose the ability to easily make that distinction. This applies to some other - though not all - "Americanisms" which are creeping in as well; for the sake of clear communication, these instances need resiting.
 

zero

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2011
Messages
1,319
What about when TfL says some tube lines are "part suspended"? Should it not be "partly" or "partially" suspended?
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
2,770
Location
Northampton
What about when TfL says some tube lines are "part suspended"? Should it not be "partly" or "partially" suspended?

I personally get irritated by what I regard as incorrect use of 'partial' - it's the opposite of 'impartial' which makes it's meaning clearer - but it's often used as a synonym for 'part' or 'partly'

If a line is described to be 'partially suspended' it means it's been suspended because of bias against it. That statement might be true, of course, but it then raises more questions...
 

SJL2020

Member
Joined
18 Jan 2020
Messages
422
Location
Rossett
I personally get irritated by what I regard as incorrect use of 'partial' - it's the opposite of 'impartial' which makes it's meaning clearer - but it's often used as a synonym for 'part' or 'partly'
You mean like a 'partial' eclipse?

According to the Oxford dictionary the use of partial to mean 'part of' has been around since the 1400s.
 

westv

Established Member
Joined
29 Mar 2013
Messages
4,365
"Can I get?" when people mean "Can I have?".
"I'm good" when they mean "I'm ok" or "I'm well"
"My bad". My what?!
:rolleyes:
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
2,770
Location
Northampton
You mean like a 'partial' eclipse?

According to the Oxford dictionary the use of partial to mean 'part of' has been around since the 1400s.

Or a part eclipse? The problem is that partial is derived from the noun 'party' in the sense of 'one side in a dispute' so an ambiguity is introduced. If an arbiter (judge, referee) made a partial decision I would take that to mean that the decision was one-sided but the loose way it's used could take the statement as meaning that only a part of the decision had been made.

Widespread use doesn't make it correct; English usage changes and that's the sign of a living language but loose use creating ambiguity is another thing.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
26,873
Location
Nottingham
"Can I get?" when people mean "Can I have?".
To which a certain type of schoolteacher would reply "Certainly you can, but whether you may is a different question".

One that gets me is "disinterested", not having a financial or other interest in some activity, versus "uninterested", not wishing to pay attention to it.

And going back to the OP, "alternate" is not an alternative for "alternative".
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
2,770
Location
Northampton
I "could of" -- when they mean "could have". Of is NOT a verb!

I wait eagerly :( to hear the first person using 'of' as a verb on its own. The (perhaps U.S. led) conversion of nouns to verbs grate on me.- 'medaling' at the olympics, for example.

Probably get hammered as a grammar nazi and told that all these fancy grammatical terms are un-necessary, possibly by people who are very alert to pronouns....
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
2,770
Location
Northampton
Nobody can be bothered to enunciate "orientated" any more either.

'Oriented' for 'Orientated' became official marketing-speak in Railfreight/TlF and written so. I once went to an (evening!) presentation at 222 when it was used umpteen times, presumably to show how hip the speaker was. An Americanism and unusual in that respect as it's shorter than the correct word - they are usually longer* presumably because the U.S. likes everything to be bigger :)

In the same world, 'specific', used in, for instance, traffic costing was always spoken as 'pecific'. As you say, why is it so hard to articulate words correctly?

*e.g. 'disassemble' instead of 'dismantle'
 

johnnychips

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2011
Messages
3,772
Location
Leeds
‘Reach out’ instead of ‘contact’ or ‘get in touch with’ really annoys me the most. I am indebted to @Bald Rick for previously publishing this meme, which gave me a huge laugh; as well as to those at work tired of American management speak.

1722981788438.png
 

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
971
The one that annoys me is "advanced booking". It's advance booking, meaning booking in advance of the date, advanced means superior. You also get signs giving "advanced warning" of road works, when it's just a board with some letters stuck on, not very advanced at all.
 

duncombec

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2014
Messages
953
Or a part eclipse? The problem is that partial is derived from the noun 'party' in the sense of 'one side in a dispute' so an ambiguity is introduced. If an arbiter (judge, referee) made a partial decision I would take that to mean that the decision was one-sided but the loose way it's used could take the statement as meaning that only a part of the decision had been made.

Widespread use doesn't make it correct; English usage changes and that's the sign of a living language but loose use creating ambiguity is another thing.

My version of Fowlers (1997) doesn't agree with your etymology at all:
Partially, partly 1. These two long-established adverbs-partially first recorded in the 15c and partly in the 16c.-have shared the sense 'in part' from the beginning.

Whenever these sort of debates come up, it's often forgotten that..
1. Many of the so-called 'rules' of English were invented by the Victorians based on what sounded nice in Latin, which isn't even the right language family for English development.
2. Many of the so-called "Americanisms" have their origin in earlier British spellings (e.g. 'gotten').
3. If language never changed, we'd still decline nouns, and have separate forms of the second person, be that singular/plural or polite/friendly (or both!).
4. The key thing in any communication, written or spoken, is the potential for confusion. I estimate the number of people to be confused by 'alternate' versus 'alternative' in this message to be in the region of zero.

It's rather like my company insisting on a differentiation between an em-dash, an en-dash, and a hyphen (especially space-hyphen-space, which Word autocorrects to an en-dash). Last time I looked, there is only one UK publisher who still uses the em-dash. Does anyone really get 'confused' by the length of a dash?
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
2,770
Location
Northampton
My version of Fowlers (1997) doesn't agree with your etymology at all:


Whenever these sort of debates come up, it's often forgotten that..
1. Many of the so-called 'rules' of English were invented by the Victorians based on what sounded nice in Latin, which isn't even the right language family for English development.
2. Many of the so-called "Americanisms" have their origin in earlier British spellings (e.g. 'gotten').
3. If language never changed, we'd still decline nouns, and have separate forms of the second person, be that singular/plural or polite/friendly (or both!).
4. The key thing in any communication, written or spoken, is the potential for confusion. I estimate the number of people to be confused by 'alternate' versus 'alternative' in this message to be in the region of zero.

It's rather like my company insisting on a differentiation between an em-dash, an en-dash, and a hyphen (especially space-hyphen-space, which Word autocorrects to an en-dash). Last time I looked, there is only one UK publisher who still uses the em-dash. Does anyone really get 'confused' by the length of a dash?

Fowler (!997) devotes the equivalent of almost a whole page to the question; I accept that there is nothing in there to support my argument, though.* My objection is that when 'partial' is used to refer to a decision or statement it has lost its impact by use as a synonym for 'partly' and there may also be ambiguities in other cases; If you mean 'partly' why not use 'partly?.

Regarding (3) I have already referred to the change of language practice over time and wrote that I think it's perfectly acceptable. My criticism of verbalising nouns is because it's lazy - "medaled" why not say "won medals"? There is already an expression for it.

Regarding (2) American English can be indeed mid Victorian usage preserved (by Webster perhaps) - the time, I think, of mass immigration by English - speakers. Throughout its long existence, the G.W.R. fixed cast-iron notices to the doors of signal boxes which bore the message 'NO UNAUTHORIZED PERSON ALLOWED IN THIS BOX BY ORDER', and reference to Victorian accident reports (going back to 1850s, in Railways Archive) shows a surprising amount of what are now sometimes regarded as modern spelling and U.S. Americanisms.

*Burchfield does write, '... I do not think it reasonable to claim (as Fowler did) ...'. Essentially, Fowler argued that the two words had different meanings (but did not include the sense of prejudice) - Burchfield thought that they did not.
 

Railsigns

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2010
Messages
2,753
The one that annoys me is "advanced booking". It's advance booking, meaning booking in advance of the date, advanced means superior. You also get signs giving "advanced warning" of road works, when it's just a board with some letters stuck on, not very advanced at all.
Railway documentation is littered with references to "advanced" warning boards/indicators.

Meanwhile, the BBC thinks the word "squash" is synonymous with "quash". How do you squash (mis)information?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8errjz9w17o

Police have squashed what they described as "dangerous" misinformation about an ongoing murder investigation.
 

duncombec

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2014
Messages
953
Fowler (!997) devotes the equivalent of almost a whole page to the question; I accept that there is nothing in there to support my argument, though.* My objection is that when 'partial' is used to refer to a decision or statement it has lost its impact by use as a synonym for 'partly' and there may also be ambiguities in other cases; If you mean 'partly' why not use 'partly?.
Because, ultimately, I expect it is simply down to personal preference, and given we agree that Fowler (we both seem to own the same edition) states the differences have been in use since the words were first used, I don't think it's possible to state that one is wrong and the other is right. As mentioned above, nobody refers to a "part eclipse" or being "partly sighted", and there is no 'dispute' there either.

Regarding (3) I have already referred to the change of language practice over time and wrote that I think it's perfectly acceptable. My criticism of verbalising nouns is because it's lazy - "medaled" why not say "won medals"? There is already an expression for it.
The OED says it was first used by Lord Byron in January 1822 (see https://www.lordbyron.org/monograph.php?doc=ThMoore.1830&select=AD1822), so it's hardly new. It may well be 'lazy', but no more lazy than using contractions such as "it's" rather than "it is". Isn't (Is not) "medaled" with one L the US spelling? ;)

Regarding (2) American English can be indeed mid Victorian usage preserved (by Webster perhaps) - the time, I think, of mass immigration by English - speakers. Throughout its long existence, the G.W.R. fixed cast-iron notices to the doors of signal boxes which bore the message 'NO UNAUTHORIZED PERSON ALLOWED IN THIS BOX BY ORDER', and reference to Victorian accident reports (going back to 1850s, in Railways Archive) shows a surprising amount of what are now sometimes regarded as modern spelling and U.S. Americanisms.
Indeed - "Oxford spelling" has always been an acceptable variant in British English, as long as used consistently. Again, at least at one point, Oxford University Press used to insist on it.

I've always held (borrowing from Oliver Kamm, chief pedant of The Times), that the real 'rules' of English are those which are inherent to the language, such as the natural order of adjectives (nobody naturally says "the red big bus", for example). Whether or not to split an infinitive is personal preference and nothing more.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Meanwhile, the BBC thinks the word "squash" is synonymous with "quash". How do you squash (mis)information?
Cambridge Dictionary says this is a legitimate use:

squash (verb)​

[ Transitive ]
to stop something from continuing to exist or happen, by forceful action:
Rumours of a possible takeover of the company were soon squashed by the management.
My Collins Thesaurus (1995) also lists 'quash' as a synonym for 'squash'.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top