Valid routes for London to Glasgow with break of journey at Manchester or Sheffield/Barnsley

[fandroid]

Hello. I work in a group of volunteer couriers, hand carrying urgent medical supplies all over the UK. Most couriers are London-based, and sometimes have to pick up either in Manchester or Barnsley for onward delivery to Glasgow. Assuming travel out of London at offpeak times, would Any Permitted routings on London to Glasgow walk-on tickets allow travel direct to Manchester, a break there, then onward to Glasgow, with a direct return journey same day or next via Warrington?

Same issue for Sheffield, but slightly complicated by the need to divert to Barnsley. I'd guess that the East Coast route might be more convenient for travel onward from Barnsley/Sheffield. Would a London Terminals to Glasgow Stations ticket cover all these options?

 

[alistairlees]

Hello. I work in a group of volunteer couriers, hand carrying urgent medical supplies all over the UK. Most couriers are London-based, and sometimes have to pick up either in Manchester or Barnsley for onward delivery to Glasgow. Assuming travel out of London at offpeak times, would Any Permitted routings on London to Glasgow walk-on tickets allow travel direct to Manchester, a break there, then onward to Glasgow, with a direct return journey same day or next via Warrington?

Same issue for Sheffield, but slightly complicated by the need to divert to Barnsley. I'd guess that the East Coast route might be more convenient for travel onward from Barnsley/Sheffield. Would a London Terminals to Glasgow Stations ticket cover all these options?

Broadly, yes
- London to Glasgow is permitted via Manchester
- London to Glasgow is also permitted via Sheffield and Barnsley but you might then have to go via Leeds, Settle and Carlisle which can be slower than, and is less frequent than, via York and Newcastle (I haven't checked the maps)

However, a London Terminals to Glasgow Central Off-Peak Return is restriction code 5F, which bars breaking your outward journey.

To get round this, buy a London Terminals to Stirling Off-Peak Return, which is valid via Glasgow, and costs the same (about £170), but does not have this restriction.

With a bit more time we could put together more details for you.

 

[Haywain]

- London to Glasgow is permitted via Manchester
- London to Glasgow is also permitted via Sheffield and Barnsley but you might then have to go via Leeds, Settle and Carlisle which can be slower than, and is less frequent than, via York and Newcastle (I haven't checked the maps)

I believe that it would be OK to go London St Pancras - Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds - York - Newcastle etc.

To get round this, buy a London Terminals to Stirling Off-Peak Return, which is valid via Glasgow, and costs the same (about £170), but does not have this restriction.

Is this valid to travel via both Edinburgh and Glasgow? London to Falkirk might be better, swapping between outward and return at Falkirk if travelling via Edinburgh.

 

[Watershed]

I believe that it would be OK to go London St Pancras - Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds - York - Newcastle etc.

Technically you can only proceed via the Settle & Carlisle line once you decide to go via Barnsley. In practice it's highly unlikely that any staff will be aware of the intricacies of the Routeing Guide and therefore the ticket will likely be accepted via York and Newcastle.

Is this valid to travel via both Edinburgh and Glasgow? London to Falkirk might be better, swapping between outward and return at Falkirk if travelling via Edinburgh.

That's certainly one option; the Stirling ticket would (for most Edinburgh-Glasgow routes) however be valid via both whilst the Falkirk ticket would restrict you to the E&G.

 

[fandroid]

Thank you for the help. I hadn't appreciated that the London to Glasgow offpeak return had a restriction on outward break of journey.

One of my colleagues has suggested that combined London to Manchester and Manchester to Glasgow offpeak returns would allow a direct return to London from Glasgow on the west coast mainline without diverting into Manchester. I doubted this. Am I correct or are there various services with the right stopping patterns that would allow it?

 

[Watershed]

Thank you for the help. I hadn't appreciated that the London to Glasgow offpeak return had a restriction on outward break of journey.

To be fair, it's a restriction that is highly unlikely to be enforced unless you start trying to use that ticket at times when the equivalent ticket to Manchester etc. would have a time restriction. 90% of staff wouldn't even know it has such a restriction and if anything, would be more likely to suggest that it's invalid on the grounds of allegedly being "off route" (though again, I'd stress that the majority of staff would accept such a long-distance ticket on 'reasonable routes' regardless of what the Routeing Guide actually says).

One of my colleagues has suggested that combined London to Manchester and Manchester to Glasgow offpeak returns would allow a direct return to London from Glasgow on the west coast mainline without diverting into Manchester. I doubted this. Am I correct or are there various services with the right stopping patterns that would allow it?

That would be valid because neither ticket has a break of journey restriction, and the London to Manchester and Manchester to Glasgow tickets are both valid via Warrington. However, this option costs considerably more, and provides much less flexibility and validity, than buying a ticket from London to somewhere like Falkirk or Stirling. The only benefit of splitting in this way would be that you can split the outward journey across two days without having to argue about the outward validity of an Off-Peak Return on the second day...

 

[plugwash]

Do all the WCML trains to Scotland stop at Warrnington?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do all the WCML trains to Scotland stop at Warrnington?

I'm not aware of any that don't.

To be fair, it's a restriction that is highly unlikely to be enforced unless you start trying to use that ticket at times when the equivalent ticket to Manchester etc. would have a time restriction. 90% of staff wouldn't even know it has such a restriction and if anything, would be more likely to suggest that it's invalid on the grounds of allegedly being "off route" (though again, I'd stress that the majority of staff would accept such a long-distance ticket on 'reasonable routes' regardless of what the Routeing Guide actually says).

London to Glasgow via Manchester (or Birmingham, or indeed both if you really want) will be accepted without question as long as it's only done at times when a Manchester ticket would be valid. (The reason for the restriction is to stop people using Glasgow Off Peaks to go to the North West when they are valid but North West ones aren't). It's well established that Birmingham and Manchester are just considered part of the WCML no different from e.g. Northampton.

Indeed it's only likely a break would be questioned if it was at a time when it would be evading such a restriction by doing so.

However be aware that TransPennine Express will be a mess!

 

[NIT100]

Technically you can only proceed via the Settle & Carlisle line once you decide to go via Barnsley. In practice it's highly unlikely that any staff will be aware of the intricacies of the Routeing Guide and therefore the ticket will likely be accepted via York and Newcastle.

I did a check on national rail enquires for random weekdays in May with Barnsley set as a via point, and it offered a number of itineraries from St Pancras via Barnsley to Leeds, then on ECML via York from there so I would say that route is valid even if it is not mapped.

 

[fandroid]

I did a check on national rail enquires for random weekdays in May with Barnsley set as a via point, and it offered a number of itineraries from St Pancras via Barnsley to Leeds, then on ECML via York from there so I would say that route is valid even if it is not mapped.

I've previously assumed that flexible London to Glasgow or Edinburgh tickets were valid by either east coast or west coast routes. If that assumption is correct then the above itinerary going north could be followed by a west coast direct train going south. Am I right?

Finally, if we are looking to arrive by 4pm then it's convenient to go on from either Glasgow Central or Queen Street to Hyndland (for Gartnavel Hospital). I guess that a ticket to there won't cover the break of journey issue as a Stirling ticket would.

 

[Watershed]

I've previously assumed that flexible London to Glasgow or Edinburgh tickets were valid by either east coast or west coast routes.

London to Glasgow tickets are valid via both routes; however, London Terminals to Edinburgh tickets specifically were re-routed "via York" as part of the scandalous single leg pricing trial (this happened despite such tickets having been valid via the WCML since the year dot, and Avanti running 1tp2h direct from Euston to Edinburgh!). You can avoid this by buying ticket to or from any other station, e.g. London Terminals to Haymarket or Finsbury Park to Edinburgh. For the time being, it's literally just London Terminals to Edinburgh that is (wrongly) routed "via York".

If that assumption is correct then the above itinerary going north could be followed by a west coast direct train going south. Am I right?

That's correct.

Finally, if we are looking to arrive by 4pm then it's convenient to go on from either Glasgow Central or Queen Street to Hyndland (for Gartnavel Hospital). I guess that a ticket to there won't cover the break of journey issue as a Stirling ticket would.

Unfortunately a ticket to Hyndland remains priced by Avanti and thus is technically not valid for break of journey. However, as mentioned, it is exceedingly unlikely that any member of ScotRail barrier staff would be aware of this restriction, let alone that they would try and enforce it.

 

[Haywain]

London Terminals to Edinburgh tickets specifically were re-routed "via York" as part of the scandalous single leg pricing trial (this happened despite such tickets having been valid via the WCML since the year dot, and Avanti running 1tp2h direct from Euston to Edinburgh!). You can avoid this by buying ticket to or from any other station, e.g. London Terminals to Haymarket or Finsbury Park to Edinburgh. For the time being, it's literally just London Terminals to Edinburgh that is (wrongly) routed "via York".

The problem is not that the tickets were changed to route 'via York' so much as that Avanti's new return ticket from London to Edinburgh carries a much less flexible 'Avanti only' routeing.

 

[Watershed]

The problem is not that the tickets were changed to route 'via York' so much as that Avanti's new return ticket from London to Edinburgh carries a much less flexible 'Avanti only' routeing.

No, the problem is that the routeing was arbitrarily and quite unjustifiably changed. If that hadn't have happened, there would have been no need for Avanti to introduce their own dedicated fare.

 

[fandroid]

Thank you everyone. I think you have answered just about query I have over these routes. I'll put some guidance in for my colleagues on our website