Verona - Munich - Prague trip (Spring 2019)

[yorkie]

In April a group of us are planning to take the train from Verona to Munich (via Brenner Pass), spend an afternoon/evening in Munich and then take the train to Prague.

If anyone has any tips for us that would be great, in particular if there is anything we should do/see in Verona, as I've never been there before, also if you have any tips for the Verona to Munich or Munich to Prague trains.

We are hoping to travel behind a "Grumpy" on a Saturday or Sunday; if anyone knows nearer the time what is running, it would be great to hear from you too.

 

[cactustwirly]

In April a group of us are planning to take the train from Verona to Munich (via Brenner Pass)

Yeah the Brenner pass is very scenic! You'll be on an Austrian LHCS service (unfortunately sans musical Taurus), with very comfortable seats!

What's the price difference between standard and 1st between Munich & Prague?
You won't get any freebies, and within Germany is isn't classed as an intercity service (more like an old IRE train)

According to Vagonweb, there isn't a dedicated 1st carriage, but a small area of compartments instead.
https://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/D/DLB_ABbmdz.php

Personally I'd go 1st class on the Verona - Munich leg instead

 

[D6700]

By coincidence, having not seen the recent developments in this thread, I've just booked Prague to Verona in early February, spread over two days, for £36 thoughout - travelling in the perfectly fine Second Class. This was made up of 503 CZK Prague to Innsbruck, via Ceske Budejovice and €19 Innsbruck to Verona. Whilst I will be going direct from Linz to Innsbruck on this occasion (a double Railjet), for the same price, you can go Linz, Selzthal, Bishchofshofen and Kitzbuhel, which covers a lot of deservedly "green" track on the Thomas Cook map and adds some older loco's into the mix.

For your journey over the Brenner Pass, those trains usually have some Second Class coaches with six seater compartments, as well as 2+2 open coaches.

From Munich to Prague, the price quoted in the above post is through Czech Railways and is not yet open for sale. 898CZK First Class versus 370 CZK in Second Class. Personally, I don't think the difference is worth it - especially if you manage to get a six seater compartment. Friday will be busy, so paying for reservations may be worthwhile.

 

[cactustwirly]

By coincidence, having not seen the recent developments in this thread, I've just booked Prague to Verona in early February, spread over two days, for £36 thoughout - travelling in the perfectly fine Second Class. This was made up of 503 CZK Prague to Innsbruck, via Ceske Budejovice and €19 Innsbruck to Verona. Whilst I will be going direct from Linz to Innsbruck on this occasion, for the same price, you can go Linz, Selzthal, Bishchofshofen and Kitzbuhel, which covers a lot of deserededly "green" track on the Thomas Cook map and adds some older loco's into the mix.

For your journey over the Brenner Pass, those trains usually have some Second Class coaches with six seater compartments, as well as 2+2 open coaches.

From Munich to Prague, the price quoted above is through Czech Railways and is not yet open for sale. 898CZK First Class versus 370 CZK in Second Class. Personally, I don't think the difference is worth it - especially if you manage to get a six seater compartment. Friday will be busy, so paying for reservations may be worthwhile.

Yes I did the Giselabahn in the summer, and it's much better than the Deutsches Eck route, although a lot slower!
Although the daily EC train is a modern Taurus loco, and I'm pretty sure most of the other services are Siemens Desiro Cityjet trains.

 

[D6700]

Yes I did the Gisela bahn in the summer, and it's much better than the Deutsches Eck route, although a lot slower!
Although the daily EC train is a modern Taurus loco, and I'm pretty sure most of the other services are Siemens Desiro Cityjet trains.

That's right, although there are some long distance IC's which are still hauled, such as IC518 from Graz - but it would be dark when I'll be travelling, so I didn't bother this time.

 

[D6700]

To assist with predicting seating arrangements, the following link will be of help:
https://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/
Just type the train number in the box and it will give you a good idea what to expect. You can look at the seating layout and photo's of the stock, as per the earlier link from cactustwirly.

This link can also be useful for checking formations in the Czech Republic and sometimes Slovakia:
https://www.zelpage.cz/razeni/

 

[superalbs]

Can someone please explain what a 'Grumpy' is?

 

[yorkie]

Can someone please explain what a 'Grumpy' is?

Class 749 locomotives, they sound a bit like English Electric locos.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Class 749 locomotives, they sound a bit like English Electric locos.

They're actually even more interesting than that simple description. At lower engine revs they sound somewhat like a Sulzer but higher revs produces a more English Electric style sound. Great fun if you can find one.

 

[superalbs]

Class 749 locomotives, they sound a bit like English Electric locos.

Interesting, thank you.

I might have to try one next time I am over there.

 

[GNERman]

Morning all,

Can't comment on Verona to Munich, but I did the Alex from Munich to Prague back in May (well I say Munich to Prague - it was actually Munich to Nryany, rail replacement bus to Rokycany then replacement CD to Prague).

Quite a nice journey on the whole. Not a particularly quick route - not helped by two changes of direction and I believe three different loco changes. Train splits at Furth Im Wald I recall, four coaches go forward to Hof and four to Prague, I recall the four being two standard opens, a standard compartment and a first/standard/mini buffet compartment. There's two six seater first class compartments, not that dissimilar to the standard ones but nice and comfortable, recently refurbished I believe. Wifi wasn't working unfortunately.

We didn't get anything complimentary in first, there was a trolley on from Munich to Furth IW. I recall on DB a coffee in 1st coats €3, on the Alex a large bottle of Augustiner Beer cost €2.70... Very pleasant members of staff onboard I must also say.

Of the 7 or so long-distance trains I did in May/June with a variety of different operators (DB/Alex/OBB/SBB/Trenitalia) it was definitely one of the better ones.

Hope that's if use.

 

[Groningen]

There are direct trains from München to Praha (no change of trains) every 2 hours from 4.44 to 16.43.

 

[30907]

The regular 749 weekend workings from April to October inclusive - ignoring "preserved" ones - leave Prague Hlavni around 0830 for Breznice and 0920 for Cercany via the Sazava Valley line. Additionally, there is a trip Cercany-Ledečko (beyond is RRB) at 0900.
The list is here (721B is the customary third 749 diagram). It auto translates for me...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Z7X8d9kdZqFGnGWSRhUfXJdFy1XVDZOUOmQ3/pubhtml#
A different page of the same spreadsheet gives current/predicted info.

The cheapest ticket for a group from Munich is probably a Bayern-Boehmen Ticket as far as Plzen, then normal fares with group discount .
I think you will be pushed for time, but if not, I would consider the more scenic but slightly slower route via Bayerisch Eisenstein (same ticket valid) - even better done uphill on the return!

PS Always check for late-announced engineering works!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Verona station is a bit of a trek from the city centre, but it would be a pity to miss one of Italy's best preserved cities - there's a frequent local bus.
Bang in the middle is the Roman arena, in a much better state than the one in Rome, with the castle and loads of cafes around.
It hosts spectacular opera performances in the summer (I saw an unforgettable Aida there), but probably no events in April, although you can still tour the place.
You can see the supposed Romeo and Juliet balcony if you follow the crowds, and plenty of fine buildings and monuments for a wander round.
The river Adige, which does a big loop round the town, might be quite high in April, depending on the snowmelt.
It has some medieval bridges, including the Roman Ponte Pietra at the far end of the pedestrian zone.

 

[bspahh]

I've spent a few weeks in Verona for work. Its a nice place to wander around, and the airport is quite close.

The Romeo & Juliet balcony is a made up attraction, but it focuses the tourists there so there is more space around the others that are nearby. If you have never been to Venice, then thats 70 minutes by train. You could spend a month in Venice, but a couple of hours is enough to walk through to St Mark's Square and get a water taxi back to the station.

 

[43096]

There are direct trains from München to Praha (no change of trains) every 2 hours from 4.44 to 16.43.

I presume that is the Alex service, so a nice mix of traction: Class 183 electric (Siemens Taurus ES64U4) to Regensburg for a 223 diesel (Siemens ER20) over the border for a Czech loco forward.

 

[D6700]

With a loco change and reversal at Regensburg (and sometimes coaches removed), another loco change or run round and reversal at Schwandorf (possibly also splitting of the train), another loco change at Plzen (sometimes with coaches added), this can make for a fascinating and slightly unpredictable journey, especially if you haven't studied the gen - which I often haven't, when making this journey a good few times in either direction over the last few years.

And very cheap fares, which put UK "spin'n'win" tours to shame!

Since the route became more frequent, some of the above may not apply - particularly the extra coaches between Plzen and Prague.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Since the route became more frequent, some of the above may not apply - particularly the extra coaches between Plzen and Prague.

There's also a new tunnel/deviation east of Plzeň which should shorten the journey.
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...nnel-opens.html?sword_list[]=Praha&no_cache=1

Trains are initially only using the southern bore until December 7, and will run at a maximum speed of 50 km/h until the launch of the full service and 160 km/h running with the December 9 timetable change. This will reduce the journey time between Plzeň and Praha-Smíchov by 11 min

 

[D6700]

There's also a new tunnel/deviation east of Plzeň which should shorten the journey.
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...nnel-opens.html?sword_list[]=Praha&no_cache=1

Ironically, I was pottering around the Prague area on the first day they started sending passenger trains through the tunnel - but was blissfully unaware until I saw it on the news in my hotel!

 

[yorkie]

...a Bayern-Boehmen Ticket as far as Plzen...

A member of staff on board the ALEX train has just told us that the ticket is not valid to Pilsen.

I'm sure we looked it up before and it was valid to Pilsen. But the validity may have changed?

It looks like it will cost is three times the price from the last stop the ticket is valid compared to the price we were expecting from Pilsen.

 

[yorkie]

Update: apparently we were sold the wrong ticket; we should have been sold a "Bayern Bohemian" ticket but we were sold a "Bayern ticket" instead.

 

[87015]

CD are unlikely to add the buying on board tax to a single if you find the guard after the crew change. If you get ALX to accept it to Domazlice then it’s not many pennies from there to Plzen.

 

[30907]

Update: apparently we were sold the wrong ticket; we should have been sold a "Bayern Bohemian" ticket but we were sold a "Bayern ticket" instead.

Oh dear. Always check your ticket...

In case you aren't up to date on Grumpy workings or can't work out how the revised spreadsheet site works:
2 of the 3 CD operated ones seem to be on the 8.30-ish Breznice and 9.20-ish Cercany via Sazava, the other is hiding!
The private ones all leave Hlavni within that slot so take your pick.
Enjoy!
Note that the Tanvald train (not a 749) isnt running due to engineering works.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Update for anyone reading this. In the end it wasn't such a terrible problem - whilst we had to pay extra for a ticket from the last German station, it was definitely worth going for First as it was quite busy, and we hadn't overpaid substantially given that we would have had to pay a similar sort of amount for an Advance ticket anyway, let alone a flexible ticket such as we ended up buying.

However, where we did get royally overcharged was from buying our ticket from Simbach (Inn) to Braunau (Inn) at the Munich ticket office. They charged us over twice as much for a return as we would have paid for a Day Ranger on the on-board TVM. Beware!

 

[cactustwirly]

Update for anyone reading this. In the end it wasn't such a terrible problem - whilst we had to pay extra for a ticket from the last German station, it was definitely worth going for First as it was quite busy, and we hadn't overpaid substantially given that we would have had to pay a similar sort of amount for an Advance ticket anyway, let alone a flexible ticket such as we ended up buying.

However, where we did get royally overcharged was from buying our ticket from Simbach (Inn) to Braunau (Inn) at the Munich ticket office. They charged us over twice as much for a return as we would have paid for a Day Ranger on the on-board TVM. Beware!

How much were you charged then? Should be about €9,60 (2x€4,80), what day ranger would you have used? Not sure a Bayern karte is valid to Braunau, as it's in Austria

How was the Brenner Pass? Thinking about doing it sometime in June.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

How much were you charged then? Should be about €9,60 (2x€4,80), what day ranger would you have used? Not sure a Bayern karte is valid to Braunau, as it's in Austria

How was the Brenner Pass? Thinking about doing it sometime in June.

Nope, the TVM onboard quoted €2.20 for a single or €4.40 for a Day Ranger for the whole region. We were charged €9.60 per person for a ticket that gave less validity, so very disappointing. Advice to anyone else considering this kind of journey - use the onboard TVM! No worries about missing a train.

Brenner Pass was nice but not quite as impressive as some of the Swiss passes I've done!

 

[cactustwirly]

Nope, the TVM onboard quoted €2.20 for a single or €4.40 for a Day Ranger for the whole region. We were charged €9.60 per person for a ticket that gave less validity, so very disappointing. Advice to anyone else considering this kind of journey - use the onboard TVM! No worries about missing a train.

Brenner Pass was nice but not quite as impressive as some of the Swiss passes I've done!

What was the name of the ticket on the TVM?
9,60 is what the DB Navigator App quotes for the journey.

 

[D6700]

€4.80 each way is the "correct" single fare offered by DB. However, the train is operated by ÖBB, who have their own range of fares for this journey. That is €2.20 single or €4.40 for a City day ticket. These are readily visible on the ÖBB booking site and were also available on the train.

If I'd been quoted €9.60 return for a 3 minute journey each way that can be walked in 17 minutes, I'd have done the latter - especially as I quite like crossing international borders on foot.

The moral of the story is that it pays to check both "sides" when making international journeys - and don't believe the (possibly once true) claims that it is always cheaper to buy from the originating country, because that is often not the case.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

€4.80 each way is the "correct" single fare offered by DB. However, the train is operated by ÖBB, who have their own range of fares for this journey. That is €2.20 single or €4.40 for a City day ticket. These are readily visible on the ÖBB booking site and were also available on the train.

If I'd been quoted €9.60 return for a 3 minute journey each way that can be walked in 17 minutes, I'd have done the latter - especially as I quite like crossing international borders on foot.

The moral of the story is that it pays to check both "sides" when making international journeys - and don't believe the (possibly once true) claims that it is always cheaper to buy from the originating country, because that is often not the case.

Well, I will certainly be making my best efforts to recover the excess amount charged!

 

[D6700]

I strongly suspect the two single fares are not exactly the same product and that your efforts wouldn't be worthwhile.

Even if you are successful, it would be something of a hollow victory, given the effort that would be required to recover less than a fiver!

Of course it was annoying, but I genuinely feel it's just something to put down to experience and to learn from. As with many purchases, it pays to do some research and to shop around.