Is it now time for Stagecoach to consider a new ticket machine. The current machines the paper tares & gets jammed very often. Because you have to hold the pass in a certain position you get more not acceptance than other machines. The Ticketer machines other operators use seem to have rather less problems in these areas.
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Vix ticket machines - should Stagecoach change them for something else?
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Joshua_Harman
Member
We’re told that they are coming next year and that they will be ‘tablet based’. They haven’t specified if they’ll be ticketer or not, (personally id prefer INIT To ticketer) so we’ll just have to wait and see.
As a driver that’s worked for operators using ticketer and vix machines, the stagecoach vix machines are far more user friendly, and I’ve never had to do a reset of the machine. Ticketer was needing a reset several times a week, touch screen calibration was often hit or miss and could only be recalibrated with a supervisor log in.
Most of the paper jams on the Vix machine are caused by passengers yanking the ticket before it’s finished printing and/or cutting, misaligning the paper and then it will jam on the next tickets.
py_megapixel
Established Member
From my perspective - which is just as a passenger - both machines have their pros and cons.
Using ITSO cards on the Vix machines feels very fiddly. You put the card on the reader and it beeps, but if you take it off at that point it gives an error. You have to leave it a couple of seconds longer until it beeps a second time, then you can take it off. I also dislike how you have to put the card in front of the display and thus it's awkward to read what it says when the card is scanned. Vix machines also seem much less reliable at taking contactless payments.
I've never seen a Vix machine give up entirely, while on Ticketer operators a couple of times I've been let on for free because the machine isn't working. However that's purely anecdotal and I have no actual data on the relative reliability of the two products.
The passenger-facing display on Ticketer machines is small and hard to read, whereas the one on Vix is much better (ignoring the issue mentioned above of the card reader blocking it).
Ticketer machines can scan barcodes, which the Vix ones can't. They can also do tap-on/tap-off (no idea if Vix supports that or not but I don't think Stagecoach uses it). I do however wonder whether the combination of both features could cause problems - what is to stop it accidentally triggering an Apple/Google Pay if someone putting a phone on the machine to scan a barcode ticket?
If Stagecoach switches to Ticketer then that will essentially mean the whole industry has standardised on one provider, which again would presumably have its pros and cons.
Using ITSO cards on the Vix machines feels very fiddly. You put the card on the reader and it beeps, but if you take it off at that point it gives an error. You have to leave it a couple of seconds longer until it beeps a second time, then you can take it off. I also dislike how you have to put the card in front of the display and thus it's awkward to read what it says when the card is scanned. Vix machines also seem much less reliable at taking contactless payments.
I've never seen a Vix machine give up entirely, while on Ticketer operators a couple of times I've been let on for free because the machine isn't working. However that's purely anecdotal and I have no actual data on the relative reliability of the two products.
The passenger-facing display on Ticketer machines is small and hard to read, whereas the one on Vix is much better (ignoring the issue mentioned above of the card reader blocking it).
Ticketer machines can scan barcodes, which the Vix ones can't. They can also do tap-on/tap-off (no idea if Vix supports that or not but I don't think Stagecoach uses it). I do however wonder whether the combination of both features could cause problems - what is to stop it accidentally triggering an Apple/Google Pay if someone putting a phone on the machine to scan a barcode ticket?
If Stagecoach switches to Ticketer then that will essentially mean the whole industry has standardised on one provider, which again would presumably have its pros and cons.
GWVillager
Member
I don’t know about Google Pay, but Apple Pay requires a ‘double tap’ of the power button to function, so it wouldn’t just pay for anything it’s waved at. Ticketer machines (usually?) seem to require the driver to select tap-on/tap-off before reading, anyway.
Andy Pacer
Established Member
Not sure about that, our Ticketer machines default to tap on/tap off.
They do; I tried it on the X7 to/from Leicester last year. It's also available on the 148 (joint ticketing arrangements with Arriva's X3 / 158 to Market Harborough / Nuneaton are in place) and all South Wales services.
Yes, as a passenger I've learned that tapping on straight away either starts a TOTO journey if that functionality is enabled, or rejects the payment device if it isn't. In either case, if buying a fixed product I must wait for the driver to select it beforehand.
I had this issue on Southern Vectis, I scanned my barcode and it tapped me on with my Apple Pay at the same time.
No, it doesn’t if you have express travel mode activated. I have it deactivated since it tapped me on as mentioned above.
Image attached showing the setting in the wallet & Apple Pay setting menu
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GWVillager
Member
Thank you both. I clearly don’t know enough about these things…
The back office for the VIX system is diabolical. I'm genuinely surprised Stagecoach put up with it for so long - what are simple fare changes and fare stage set ups in Ticketer takes meticulous planning with Vix.
It's a shame really as the hardware, smart card transactions aside, is pretty decent for its age.
It's a shame really as the hardware, smart card transactions aside, is pretty decent for its age.
Give me the Vix machine over ticketer anyday. Simple to use when you understand it and know its quirks.
Best way to deal with paper jams is to hand tickets to the passengers yourself so they don't pull on them. As for the cards on the machines, I hold my hand over the reader and take the card from them and do it. Placing your hand on the reader for them to put the card in your hand gives it just the right height to activate. You don't need to totally put it down on the machine.
Best way to deal with paper jams is to hand tickets to the passengers yourself so they don't pull on them. As for the cards on the machines, I hold my hand over the reader and take the card from them and do it. Placing your hand on the reader for them to put the card in your hand gives it just the right height to activate. You don't need to totally put it down on the machine.
markymark2000
Established Member
It would be one of the worst things to happen to the bus industry. Having 95% of bus operators using one ticket machine company would kill innovation. We already see it with Ticketer, they have massively slowed down their innovations and their prices are quite high as it is, without them increasing their market share even more!
That would be the so-called "Next Generation ETM", which TfGM got their hands on before anyone else.
www.ticketer.com
Bus & Coach Buyer Feature: A New Era for Ticketing – Ticketer
We chat with Bus & Coach Buyer about how our Next Generation ETM is paving the way for a new era of ticketing.
www.ticketer.com
M803UYA
Member
It's a sign of the changing requirements for operators that the two market leaders are effectively no more in the bus world. Wayfarer had a spin-off business called Bright Tech which pioneered electronic destination screens - Stagecoach being the largest customer in the early to mid 1990s. Wayfarer is still in the market, but is now known as Flowbird and they're the go to for parking machines and the like.
Most independent operators came to ticketer before the big firms did - c2011 onwards. Reading was the first 'big firm' to go for Ticketer and Cardiff Bus either the second or the third in 2014 - before that their product was aimed at the smaller operator/local authorities. @Citistar can reveal a little more about ticketer and how he replaced his Wayfarer Saver machines with them.
At the time the product came to market the concept of being able to see ticket level data as it took place was quite revolutionary. Wayfarer 2/3 and TGX machines ran off a module which needed downloading on a base machine at the end of the driver's working day. So you didn't know how much you'd taken on bus until 24 hours afterward. The backoffice software Wayfarer had (Merit) was clunky to use and the extracted data needed a lot of cleaning up before it made any sense. You would also have to make repeated requests for the software to be installed by them.... why on earth would you want to know how your bus network was doing if you worked in a commercial office
Even once you'd got the data downloaded you still potentially didn't know what your takings would be - as data packets would go missing. Wrightbus Streetlites when they landed at Yellows were culprits for this - as they didn't download before the bus had the master switch turned off. You could hit 4 buttons on the machine and have it download that way, but that was something like 130+ machines to follow round.
Yellow Buses went for Wayfarer TGX machines in 2009 to replace Wayfarer 3s. The TGX machines were owned but there was a repair/maintenance contract in place - all machines had to communicate with the aerial at the back of the building so they ran the current version of the software. So if your senior aged school buses had a couple of weeks sleeping at the top of the yard you needed to fire them up before they went back after the half term.
Hence how I know Volvo Citybuses respond to a jump starter pack and that you should also work rear to front of the line (otherwise you don't see your colleague waving in the mirrors because of the smoke cloud you just made). Much fun was had getting them to arrive and repair machines. If you ran outstations, you could have more fun with modules. Western Greyhound in their heyday outstationed a lot of the buses, but not all drivers would work into Summercourt. Some Liskeard drivers didn't at all - but their takings and module would be sent over in a bag with a replacement module going the other way. You don't want drivers having two normally! Go back to the 'second Setright machine' of old. Wayfarer Savers would be even easier to fiddle - to issue the ticket, press pound sign, type in the fare. It wouldn't drill down to fare stage/stop level.
As Ticketer downloads over cloud software you eliminate that need for trips to a mother depot to pay in and download etc. Yellows were very dissatisfied with Wayfarer by the end - and had been for 3/4 years prior to switching to ticketer. The need to go contactless accelerated it, as did an incident in September 2017 when someone other than the company rolled back the version number on the machines. That was a fun Saturday as 100+ buses didn't have working ticket machines. It is possible the air might have turned blue that morning. And yes, the entire fleet operated on emergency tickets as issuing an instruction to 'let them travel' was a bit hard for people.
Almex had an even more disastrous time implementing their smartcard enabled ticket machine - First went for the Optima nationwide and ended up with a lot of doorstops retired very early. I could have had a free one but didn't have a door needing propping open.
I guess it's a classic example of a market leader not keeping up with the developments in the industry and being overtaken by other new providers. Gardner used to be the preferred engine supplier for most people's buses but they never built them in sufficient volume, so people went to a firm called Cummins instead.
Goldfish62
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With Google Pay you have to have the app open with your payment card showing on the screen. Obviously both that and scanning a barcode can't be done at the same time.
I'd understood that Stagecoach were replacing their ETMs this year, but from previous posts it sounds like it's now next year. What I was told, and I don't know how true it is, is that it will be something not before seen in the UK.
So no Ticketer for Stagecoach. Or TfL for that matter (they're going for INIT).
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Simply unlocking your phone is enough provided NFC is switched on and you're happy to use your default card.
On another note, I recently discovered a public transport verification on/off setting within Google Wallet and tested it "off" to see if it functioned like Apple's Express Mode on a locked phone. It didn't - I tried it on both TfL (Cubic) and Falcon (Ticketer) readers - but in fairness fingerprint unlocking is usually rather quick anyway.
INIT's iBus2 contract doesn't include any provision for new ticket machines, does it? Either way the contract to supply replacement card readers (Project Hina) has gone to, surprise surprise, Cubic.
Goldfish62
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Yes, you're right. My mistake. The replacement for the elderly Wayfarer ETMs (which won't actually be a ticket machine) is being separately tendered.
Were Timtronic (at one time at least) a separate company? I associate them with Almex (who had been around making mechanical ticket machines before that) - there's a photo of one here on Flickr (not mine) here that describes it as Almex Timtronic. Although it's possible Almex took over a smaller firm.
Almex replaced it (round the early 90s) with the Eurofare / A90 (another picture, again on Flickr and not mine here), which worked on similar principles, as in stored fare, driver just entered alighting stage number, ticket class (and if relevant x however many + different ticket class x however many etc) then it would work out the fares / total amount due for the whole party (this could get complicated if it was 2 adults, 3 children, 1 senior concession* and a dog) and then the change for a ten pound note...
Although one of my office colleagues who did some driving once made the mistake and entered the key sequence 'Bus Station - Adult Single - x 22 - issue. They meant to press x2, and didn't check the total figure before pressing 'issue'. Oops.
(* - this of course before the national concession scheme, and in some areas there was a separate fare scale or flat fare for concession passholders, not the same as child fares)
One of my first jobs in the industry was playing a fairly junior part in getting Eurofare up and running somewhere. They are of course now museum pieces...
I think Timtronics were creatures of Almex but I don't remember that being highlighted. Trying to train passengers to state their intended destination rather than their fare value was quite a challenge.
It’s a regular occurrence with teenagers slapping their bank card on reader and it going through as an adult TOTO. The price difference could be up to £4.75 on some routes - especially when they don’t tap off.
I'm surprised this problem hasn't been resolved yet. I recall on a visit to the Netherlands a good few years back that tickets came with a warning if you were scanning the barcode from a PDF. However, the NS app resolved the issue by disabling NFC when it was open, this preventing contactless transactions. Assuming a barcode ticket is within the Stagecoach (or other operator) app then surely they could do the same?
As an aside, I find the Vix works really well with contactless on my phone, while Ticketer is very finnicky. It's a similar story in shops though, some machines work really well, others need the phone holding at exactly the correct distance and angle for a few seconds otherwise it gets confused. I suspect this is more on my phone (an older HTC, one of the first that had NFC functionality) but it does show that some companies do extra testing and refinement to get the machines working with as many payment devices as possible.
Aaron Ashton
Member
Stagecoach Cumbria & North Lancashire (unsure if all other OpCos are included) are under contract to Vix until 2026, I've been pestering for 2 years now to get different machines and tonight got told, we're still under contract until 2026 with Vix...
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