VTWC - Virgin West Coast Trains' removal of standard class quiet zone

[All Line Rover]

I can imagine it generating issues, such as complaints coming in about someone being noisy and "the guard did nothing", as well as it creating issues for on-train staff.

I think it's more like: "There was a noisy stag party. When the guard checked their tickets they asked if it was OK to sit in the quiet coach. The guard said: 'Yeah, sure. Talking isn't prohibited.' Every other carriage was quieter, so we moved."

It would help a lot if the signage was better. Notices on every seat back, plus as you enter the car, along the lines of "you have chosen to travel in the quiet car, if you don't want to be quiet please use one of the other 10 carriages" could help.

That, along with a prohibition on under 5's and not reserving 5-15 child tickets in the quiet coach unless requested, would solve everything.
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Im not gunna get caught in a huge debate here but I do feel this is something that maybe should have been thought of at the time the 390s were reconfigured internally. Take a coach, the 1 next to FC would make sense, devide it with a glass partition and electric sliding door and refit 5050 with First and Standard facilities and designate quiet. This would mean inforcement was simple and classes would be seperate.
A

They could have done it to Coach G. The half nearest to standard class the STD quiet coach, and the half nearest to first class the 1ST quiet coach. It would also have reduced staff movements in the 1ST portion. Instead they spent millions making 1ST too small and getting rid of the 1ST quiet coach facility in the process.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That, along with a prohibition on under 5's and not reserving 5-15 child tickets in the quiet coach unless requested, would solve everything.

I think they would do well to follow the Swiss idea and designate, on long trains like Pendolinos, a family carriage. This would be all tables, be decorated accordingly, and perhaps lose 4 or 8 seats to a small play area. Those with children under about 6 would be encouraged to choose this area so long as it is available.

 

[scotsman]

Not just in the quiet coach. A sign by each seat stating "Do not play any audio/video device such that anyone else can hear it. This is an infringement of the Railway Byelaws and is basic consideration and manners. Maximum penalty £whatever" might be a start. Then all it takes is for the guard to tap on the table and point at the sign. Most would then pack it in with the threat of the fine.

It might just be me, but I like the idea of travel as a relaxing experience. Your suggestions would make travel pretty intimidating to a lot of people. It would change the perception in staff, more than likely lead to an increase in assaults.

Traincrew are not the police.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

GWT did actually introduce a Family Carriage at the same time they brought in the (first) Quiet Carriage. Shame it didn't last.

Pre-Virgin XC had a family carriage but no quiet carriage on some sets - there were board games printed on the tables!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It might just be me, but I like the idea of travel as a relaxing experience.

I do as well. It is not a relaxing experience when I am being bombarded, in breach of the law, with noise from electronic devices being played out loud. This has to stop (or the law should be repealed, recognising that it is not an appropriate law - but I think it very much is - use of headphones is basic manners).

It's not as if I am asking for something new to be banned. It is *already* banned. It requires enforcement of the ban.

Your suggestions would make travel pretty intimidating to a lot of people. It would change the perception in staff, more than likely lead to an increase in assaults.

It is no more intimidating than the notices about Penalty Fares, the removal of seat reservations, the unnecessary use of the alarm handle etc.

Traincrew are not the police.

No, but I certainly would expect them to either ensure the relevant passenger conduct Byelaws are being complied with, or involve the BTP if unable to do so themselves.
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GWT did actually introduce a Family Carriage at the same time they brought in the (first) Quiet Carriage. Shame it didn't last.

Pre-Virgin XC had a family carriage but no quiet carriage on some sets - there were board games printed on the tables!

That (I've travelled on it) was one Mk2 set with every coach like that, wasn't it? It also had a very nice wooden interior.

 

[ainsworth74]

No, but I certainly would expect them to either ensure the relevant passenger conduct Byelaws are being complied with, or involve the BTP if unable to do so themselves.

Ah you see this is probably the root of the problem. The BTP most likely won't get involved for something like someone playing music without headphones (unless it was something extreme like they had a concert grade speaker blasting music at harmful levels for example). Enforcement of the Byelaws regarding behavior should be more prevalent but you can't expect staff to do much beyond asking people to obey them and without the BTP there isn't much that can really be done.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In most cases, if staff told them to pack it in they probably would, particularly if done fairly assertively on an initial refusal.

 

[tony_mac]

I don't care if staff never enforce it - they can call it a 'suggested' quiet coach, and I expect it will be largely the same.

Just having a designated quiet coach allows the people who want to be quiet an opportunity to be around like-minded people.
In my experience on Virgin, 90+% of the time that is perfectly sufficient.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't care if staff never enforce it - they can call it a 'suggested' quiet coach, and I expect it will be largely the same.

Just having a designated quiet coach allows the people who want to be quiet an opportunity to be around like-minded people.
In my experience on Virgin, 90+% of the time that is perfectly sufficient.

Most probably. The issue I'm more concerned with is other coaches turning into "noisy coaches" when in fact basic consideration (not yelling into mobile phones but talking at a normal volume, not playing music/movies out loud, at least attempting to calm your baby when it gets upset etc) is appropriate in all coaches for people to coexist happily.

 

[scotsman]

In most cases, if staff told them to pack it in they probably would, particularly if done fairly assertively on an initial refusal.

I've done conflict avoidance training, it doesn't always work that way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've done conflict avoidance training, it doesn't always work that way.

If I am to read that as I do read it, which is that guards won't enforce the Byelaws, or even politely request people to comply with them, for fear of attack, then we need more Merseyrail style Byelaw squads to back them up, or at least to consider starting having two guards on trains where this is felt to be a problem rather than just one.

The rules are there for everyone's benefit, and if people disrespect them they need to be enforced. Guards IME don't even try to enforce this one - yet they are happy to enforce ticketing irregularities - surely asking someone for £150 Anytime Single because they got on the wrong train with their Advance is far more likely to cause conflict than politely requesting music being played out loud to be turned off.

 

[bramling]

If I am to read that as I do read it, which is that guards won't enforce the Byelaws, or even politely request people to comply with them, for fear of attack, then we need more Merseyrail style Byelaw squads to back them up, or at least to consider starting having two guards on trains where this is felt to be a problem rather than just one.

The rules are there for everyone's benefit, and if people disrespect them they need to be enforced. Guards IME don't even try to enforce this one - yet they are happy to enforce ticketing irregularities - surely asking someone for £150 Anytime Single because they got on the wrong train with their Advance is far more likely to cause conflict than politely requesting music being played out loud to be turned off.

I don't think it's appropriate for the guard to be required to enforce byelaws as they have enough to do, and of course there's no guard on DOO trains. However, if we're having Byelaw Enforcement Officers then bring it on -- as long as they're properly trained and managed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think it's appropriate for the guard to be required to enforce byelaws as they have enough to do, and of course there's no guard on DOO trains. However, if we're having Byelaw Enforcement Officers then bring it on -- as long as they're properly trained and managed.

One thing I don't like about the Merseyrail approach is the thuggish demeanour of them, but I would certainly be very happy with patrols by more German/Dutch style polite but firm, professionalised security staff. Perhaps in the light of recent events around the world such a thing would be justified more generally rather than just to stop people doing things that are a bit irritating.

 

[All Line Rover]

One thing I don't like about the Merseyrail approach is the thuggish demeanour of them, but I would certainly be very happy with patrols by more German/Dutch style polite but firm, professionalised security staff. Perhaps in the light of recent events around the world such a thing would be justified more generally rather than just to stop people doing things that are a bit irritating.

Without touching on the question of whether it would be appropriate to have security staff on a train, I would be in favour of there being a nominal fee (say £5) for use of a quiet zone, providing the quiet zone only takes up a small portion of a very long train. The fee would make sure that only people who want to sit in a quiet zone actually do so, and the revenue raised could be used to employ an additional member of staff to sit in the quiet zone to collect the fees and perhaps serve basic refreshments; a sort of 'standard premium'.

 

[scotsman]

If I am to read that as I do read it, which is that guards won't enforce the Byelaws, or even politely request people to comply with them, for fear of attack, then we need more Merseyrail style Byelaw squads to back them up, or at least to consider starting having two guards on trains where this is felt to be a problem rather than just one.

The rules are there for everyone's benefit, and if people disrespect them they need to be enforced. Guards IME don't even try to enforce this one - yet they are happy to enforce ticketing irregularities - surely asking someone for £150 Anytime Single because they got on the wrong train with their Advance is far more likely to cause conflict than politely requesting music being played out loud to be turned off.

You're framing it to fit your view. Humans are idiosyncratic, not everyone will react to everything the same way. The reasons for someone behaving in a particular way aren't always obvious, hence, their reactions will differ based upon the cause of their behaviour.

 

[185143]

One thing I don't like about the Merseyrail approach is the thuggish demeanour of them, but I would certainly be very happy with patrols by more German/Dutch style polite but firm, professionalised security staff. Perhaps in the light of recent events around the world such a thing would be justified more generally rather than just to stop people doing things that are a bit irritating.

Without touching on the question of whether it would be appropriate to have security staff on a train, I would be in favour of there being a nominal fee (say £5) for use of a quiet zone, providing the quiet zone only takes up a small portion of a very long train. The fee would make sure that only people who want to sit in a quiet zone actually do so, and the revenue raised could be used to employ an additional member of staff to sit in the quiet zone to collect the fees and perhaps serve basic refreshments; a sort of 'standard premium'.

that's a good idea actually, charge say £5 and give everyone a free coffee and biscuit or something like that, that'd go down well IMHO!

 

[geoffk]

Reading the above has reminded me of a recent experience in Denmark. Two of us were in a quiet coach ("Stille zone") on the Copenhagen S-Bane. We started to talk in a normal voice and a lady passenger at once drew our attention to the "stille zone" sign, making it quite clear that it meant "silent", i.e. "no talking"! We were a bit taken aback but weren't going far. Presumably the Danes are more compliant and less anti-social than the Brits often are.

Now a quiet coach in which there were no safety or security announcements every few minutes - wouldn't that be good? The Northern class 319s are the worst in my area.

 

[All Line Rover]

So it's now late 2016, and I couldn't help but notice on a Pendolino today that all the carriages are covered with "Virgin Beam" stickers. This includes Coach A, with all quiet zone stickers being removed except the small one on the door beneath the carriage letter.

I'm fairly certain that there used to be quiet zone stickers on the luggage racks. These have gone.

On the other hand, the VTWC booking engine continues to show Coach A as a quiet zone through to (at least) March next year.

What conclusion should be draw from this?

One point I consider to be worth making is that a suggestion I made a while back that the quiet zone be made more obvious by affixing stickers to the rear of seats was refused on the basis that stickers on the rear of seats would be "vandalised" and their installation would be "logistically difficult". The former suggests that Virgin hold a very low opinion of their customers, and how the installation of stickers can be "logistically difficult" is beyond me.

Therefore, I am more than a little surprised to find that Virgin has affixed "Virgin Beam" stickers to the rear of seats. Have the vandals been forgotten about?

I have attached some photos of the stickers. Sorry about the poor image quality. It is difficult to get a camera to autofocus properly in a carriage that is constantly jerking.

 

[Starmill]

I think it's quite presumptuous that they say you should use your 4G to download their app what if you don't have a data plan, or one that doesn't include 4G? Is it to make you think that their WiFi uses 4G (does it? I guess not) which actually you have to pay for in that coach anyway.

 

[All Line Rover]

You have to use your phone's data connection because the on board WiFi, in standard or first class, doesn't allow the download of files greater in size than 5mb (which explains why it is useless for a lot of business tasks: can't download PDFs, can't download images, can't download spreadsheets, can't connect to databases, can't use VoiP, can't even download many Word documents). I think VTWC mistakenly believes that their first class business passengers all want to spend their time using Facebook.

Back to the quiet coach: I was told a few months ago by VTWC guards that the idea of removing the standard class quiet zone had been dropped. Nonetheless, the latest behaviour doesn't bode well and I don't trust VTWC given the way they went about removing the first class quiet zone.

 

[DarloRich]

The quiet coach was still there on Sunday afternoon when I traveled back from Manchester. I beamed myself silly in the said coach.
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I think it's quite presumptuous that they say you should use your 4G to download their app what if you don't have a data plan, or one that doesn't include 4G? Is it to make you think that their WiFi uses 4G (does it? I guess not) which actually you have to pay for in that coach anyway.

it is the only way you can download it as you cant do so on the train. It is worth it. However no one is making download the app.

it doesn't yet work on Windows

 

[gray1404]

Have I missed something here, has Merseyrail been dealing with people on mobile phones on their trains now? I don't think they have.