Wakefield - London KX - 19c split

[strowger]

Hallo!

I need to make a day trip to London later this month, travelling out from Wakefield Westgate at about 0700. I don't want to commit to a train home. If I did, the cost for 2 advance singles would be about £140.

East Coast would like to sell me a £249 open return for this.

I have come up with a series of 19c (season ticket) splits which bring the cost down to about £130, and leave me flexible to take any train in either direction on the day.

Moderators: would it be OK to post this?

All: would anyone familiar with this type of split like to review & comment?

Cheers

 

[syorksdeano]

Would the splits work out any cheaper via Sheffield?

 

[strowger]

For a number of reasons, Sheffield isn't an option.

 

[higthomas]

Do you already own a season ticket, or do you intend to get one in order to make your journey cheaper?

 

[strowger]

Already own.

 

[yorkie]

Providing one ticket is a season, and the other tickets are not, then providing the tickets cover the entire journey with no gaps, it's valid.

 

[strowger]

OK, here's what I propose.

I'll arrive at Wakefield using a season I already hold. Wakefield - Kings Cross Return would be £249.

Wakefield - South Elmsall SDR £5.30
South Elmsall - Doncaster SDR £3.70
Doncaster - Retford SDR £11.20
Retford - Newark SDR £11.20
Newark - Grantham SDR £8.80
Grantham - Peterborough SDR £23.60
Peterborough - Huntingdon SDR £8.90
Huntingdon - Stevenage SDR £12.90
Stevenage - Kings Cross SDR £20.30

Total £105.90.

I've found an obvious loophole (starting and finishing short over a longer journey not priced by EC) which reduces one of the above by a few pounds, which I don't want to post, so let's call the total price £102.

 

[Haywain]

Are you tavelling from Leeds, or from Wakefield? I think the season needs to cover part of the journey being made.

 

[yorkie]

Are you tavelling from Leeds, or from Wakefield? I think the season needs to cover part of the journey being made.

Neither - he will be traveling from a station in West Yorkshire, using a Season to cover the journey to Wakefield.

As the full list of tickets and full journey hasn't been disclosed, it's not really possible to accurately and conclusively comment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've found an obvious loophole (starting and finishing short over a longer journey not priced by EC) which reduces one of the above by a few pounds, which I don't want to post, so let's call the total price £102.

For the sake of £3, is it worth potentially losing the loophole and giving the Guard a potential reason (no matter how wrong) to reject the whole combination?

 

[strowger]

Neither - he will be traveling from a station in West Yorkshire, using a Season to cover the journey to Wakefield.

As the full list of tickets and full journey hasn't been disclosed, it's not really possible to accurately and conclusively comment.

I don't really understand this. I already hold the season in question, and it covers the journey to Wakefield, so the journey in question can surely be assumed to start from Wakefield.

It's a Walsden to Pontefract Stations 7DS, which I'll use to board a Leeds-Kings Cross train at Leeds.

If I weren't planning to do a split, I'd still have the season, it'd still take me to Wakefield, and I'd still be looking for a London fare from Wakefield.

For the sake of £3, is it worth potentially losing the loophole and giving the Guard a potential reason (no matter how wrong) to reject the whole combination?

Unsure. The ticket in question is easy to show as being valid and is not an "outrageous" loophole. If you're of the opinion that I shouldn't use it then I'll respect your better judgement.

I'm not at all worried about having the combination rejected incorrectly.

I'm open to any suggestions of ways to reduce the cost further without endangering anyones loopholes, especially if they result in a greater number of tickets being needed. You can't have too many

 

[yorkie]

Are you tavelling from Leeds, or from Wakefield? I think the season needs to cover part of the journey being made.

This is absolutely crucial if relying on NRCoC Condition 19c. (see 1.6.2.3 Clause 19(c) - Season Tickets and Rovers)

I don't really understand this. I already hold the season in question, and it covers the journey to Wakefield, so the journey in question can surely be assumed to start from Wakefield.

If your journey is from Wakefield to London then the train would need to call at the stations, so you don't want to be arguing that!

It's a Walsden to Pontefract Stations 7DS, which I'll use to board a Leeds-Kings Cross train at Leeds.

That's better. A journey from Walsden to London, with the above combination is fine. Or a journey from Leeds to London, would also be fine. But a journey from Wakefield wouldn't be!

Unsure. The ticket in question is easy to show as being valid and is not an "outrageous" loophole. If you're of the opinion that I shouldn't use it then I'll respect your better judgement.

I don't know what it is, but if you're replacing the Wakefield-Doncaster part of the journey with the usual loophole ticket for that, then I agree it's totally valid but makes your argument harder and means the chances of (incorrect) rejection are more likely.

I'd say you have a tough enough job getting some Guards to accept a series of "linear" splits where the tickets clearly all join up, without introducing anomalies into the mix. That, in my opinion (and others I've spoken to), was the reason RJ had so many problems with EMT rejecting his valid combinations.

 

[Haywain]

I don't know what it is, but if you're replacing the Wakefield-Doncaster part of the journey with the usual loophole ticket for that, then I agree it's totally valid but makes your argument harder and means the chances of (incorrect) rejection are more likely.

I'd say you have a tough enough job getting some Guards to accept a series of "linear" splits where the tickets clearly all join up, without introducing anomalies into the mix. That, in my opinion (and others I've spoken to), was the reason RJ had so many problems with EMT rejecting his valid combinations.

If it is the one I think it might be (at £20.50?) then it doesn't look terribly controversial to me, and by that point that guard will probably be fed up with looking at all the tickets! However, as Yorkie says, if you get the wrong guard you'll have problems regardless of how valid the splits look.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's a Walsden to Pontefract Stations 7DS, which I'll use to board a Leeds-Kings Cross train at Leeds.

Excellent. But that's the important detail, as a Metrocard does not count as a season ticket for 19c purposes.

 

[strowger]

If it is the one I think it might be (at £20.50?)

It is

 

[ASharpe]

A couple of options that haven't been mentioned:
The East Coast website offers half price super off-peak singles provided they are bought in advance. If you don't want to return during the evening peak then combined with an advance southbound it give you some flexibility for a reasonable cost.

Another option would be Grand Central to/from Wakefield Kirkgate. It's not much more flexible than an Advance ticket though.

 

[strowger]

A couple of options that haven't been mentioned:
The East Coast website offers half price super off-peak singles provided they are bought in advance. If you don't want to return during the evening peak then combined with an advance southbound it give you some flexibility for a reasonable cost.

Another option would be Grand Central to/from Wakefield Kirkgate. It's not much more flexible than an Advance ticket though.

Thank you for these.

Grand Central arrives in London too late (and also is too unreliable).

I probably do want to return during the evening peak. I need to be able to, anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just for completeness' sake, I priced up doing the journey from Kings Cross to Wakefield using singles, with an existing 7DS for the Wakefield-Leeds leg.

The SDS (anytime single) KGX-WKF is £124.50.

There's also an SSS (superoffpeak) at £96.80, not valid at the most useful times of course

Splitting this up:

Kings Cross - Stevenage SDS £13.60
Stevenage - Huntingdon SDS £11.80
Huntingdon - Peterborough SDS £5.60
Peterborough - Grantham CDS £14.10
Grantham - Newark SDS £8.60
Newark - Retford SDS £11.00
Retford - Doncaster SDS £10.90
Doncaster - South Elmsall SDS £2.60
South Elmsall - Wakefield SDS £2.80

Total £81.

All those are anytime singles, except the PBO-GRA leg, which has a very friendly restriction (not before 0930). The SDS there is £19, raising the price of the split journey by £4.90.

Just to be clear, I haven't looked at the possibility of using advance singles, nor have I looked at any use of loopholes this time. I know there are at least a couple of the latter.

The saving probably isn't worth it if the SSS is an option - it's only £15.80, and buying this many tickets is obviously somewhat error-prone and time-consuming, never mind issues of hassle from poorly-trained staff.

 

[SouthStand]

I've looked at this sort of journey before for my Leeds supporting friends in Wakefield. If you're travelling on a Saturday, the FCC only PBO - KGX £18 day return might be of use?

 

[yorkie]

I used to do FCC from Peterborough a lot, but I find these days it's not worth it, especially in the new timetable with more fast services, which (thankfully) don't generally call at Peterborough.

And for the journeys in question its about getting the cost of peak travel down from a level that is unbelievable and crazy to a level that is merely a tad overpriced.

 

[strowger]

I've looked at this sort of journey before for my Leeds supporting friends in Wakefield. If you're travelling on a Saturday, the FCC only PBO - KGX £18 day return might be of use?

If you're willing to physically change trains at PBO as you suggest (or between there and KGX) then a whole range of cheaper options (routed FCC ONLY) are available.

The FCC ONLY weekend-only fares ("super offpeak" with restriction code FB) are very cheap - but I'd mostly expect to be able to get a good value advance on East Coast on those days.

Each particular type of journey will have different possibilities for splits, whether 19c or "conventional" (19a/b).

My particular case - needing a day return, with outbound travel on the most expensive train with no discounted advances, and unable to commit to a particular train for the return leg - probably shows the most impressive savings on this route.

I haven't researched very thoroughly but I think a peak-time 19C split on West Coast (from Manchester) would be even cheaper for my case - but I'm allergic to VWC so can't be arsed to work it out in detail.

 

[185143]

A couple of options that haven't been mentioned:
The East Coast website offers half price super off-peak singles provided they are bought in advance. If you don't want to return during the evening peak then combined with an advance southbound it give you some flexibility for a reasonable cost.

Another option would be Grand Central to/from Wakefield Kirkgate. It's not much more flexible than an Advance ticket though.

Wakefield Kirkgate??

Are you willing to send the army to accompany him to the train?

 

[strowger]

I made the journey today.

Outbound, the ticket check was cursory; I handed over the whole stack of tickets, the top one was stamped and the rest returned without comment.

On the return, a very polite guard told me that I was OK, but the train needed to stop at the intermediate stations really. I pointed out that I was using the season for part of the journey. We then had a friendly conversation about 19c and how much it could save, while all 9 tickets were stamped