Was Birmingham Moor Street ever proposed for closure in the Beeching Cuts?

[Jorge Da Silva]

Out of interest was Birmingham Moor Street ever proposed for closure, if so why was it saved or why was it not proposed for closure?

 

[Gloster]

It does not appear to be listed and the lines southwards are neither marked for closure or a modified service on the maps. (Source: railwaysarchive.co.uk website.) There might be more on the warwickshirerailways.com site.

 

[IanXC]

As I understand it the plan was to divert the residual services remaining at Moor Street into New Street via the St Andrews Chord(? - up onto the Camp Hill line to access New Street). From 1967 to the start of half hourly services towards Dorridge and Shirley, the only services operating into Moor Street were peak time additionals that couldn't be accomodated at New Street, preventing the closure of Moor Street.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

As I understand it the plan was to divert the residual services remaining at Moor Street into New Street via the St Andrews Chord(? - up onto the Camp Hill line to access New Street). From 1967 to the start of half hourly services towards Dorridge and Shirley, the only services operating into Moor Street were peak time additionals that couldn't be accomodated at New Street, preventing the closure of Moor Street.

So the closure of Moor Street was part of the plan or not?

 

[Peter Sarf]

As I understand it New Street was rebuilt from two parallel stations in the 1960s with the aim of it taking over all Central Birmingham services. But services never reduced to the level where Moor Street could be dispensed with. Then as demand grew Moor Streets future looked more assured and now there are through services beyond Snow Hill to Stourbridge which took over services that were going into New Street in the 1960s.

 

[gg1]

The Snow Hill to Wolves LL line was also not recommended for closure by Beeching either, it was a later government decision. If that line had stayed open as planned I suspect all services would have been diverted to Snow Hill with Moor Street being closed entirely (I doubt a 1987esque through platform Moor Street would have been funded in the 70s).

 

[Clarence Yard]

So the closure of Moor Street was part of the plan or not?

Yes, but you have to remember there was more than one plan. Reshaping was followed by a trunk routes exercise, which proposed further line closures and, connected with this, then there was the continuing facilities rationalisation exercise, which drove eliminating duplicate facilities (such as stations) in a single geographical area.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Yes, but you have to remember there was more than one plan. Reshaping was followed by a trunk routes exercise, which proposed further line closures and, connected with this, then there was the continuing facilities rationalisation exercise, which drove eliminating duplicate facilities (such as stations) in a single geographical area.

To be fair, the 'Development of Trunk Routes' plan said explicitly that "It should be recognised that the purpose of this study is to select routes for future intensive use, not to select lines for closure".

The document identified Birmingham-Banbury-Didcot as a future Trunk Route (but did not favour the route via Stratford-upon-Avon and Cheltenham against the ex Midland 'Lickey' route).

The document did not purport to address urban commuting issues anywhere.

The document did not mention Birmingham Moor Street at all. Nor did it mention multiple (passenger) stations in other cities and towns such as Manchester, Sheffield, Liverpool and Warrington. It was not pitched at that level of detail.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, but the selection of those routes put the spotlight on those not selected for intensive use. In other words the report was used for purposes that it wasn’t intended for and, as stated above, wasn’t supposed to be for.

That gave the green light for the various rationalisation teams to get busy. As an aside, I can’t now remember when the last of the regional rationalisation units finished. I think it was sometime in the 1970’s.

 

[Bevan Price]

The Snow Hill to Wolves LL line was also not recommended for closure by Beeching either, it was a later government decision. If that line had stayed open as planned I suspect all services would have been diverted to Snow Hill with Moor Street being closed entirely (I doubt a 1987esque through platform Moor Street would have been funded in the 70s).

Snow Hill to Wolves LL was left with such a poor service that it was doomed to be a failure.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Snow Hill to Wolves LL was left with such a poor service that it was doomed to be a failure.

It was grant aided initially but the new West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority/Executive saw 'One Man Operated', exact fare only, diesel buses as the future for local transport as it integrated the municipal operations of Birmingham, West Bromwich, Wolverhampton and Walsall. The new '79' bus route linking Birmingham and Wolverhampton via West Bromwich was their signature achievement following the decision not to subsidise the Snow Hill line.

All of this was nothing to do with Dr Beeching or his reports (to answer the OP's question).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

All of this was nothing to do with Dr Beeching or his reports (to answer the OP's question).

I concur. 'Birmingham Moor Street' isn't listed as one of the numerous various "Passenger Stations and Halts to be Closed (England)" in Appendix 2 - Section 3 of "The Reshaping of British Railways" (British Railways Board - 1963).

 

[IanXC]

So the closure of Moor Street was part of the plan or not?

I'd suggest after the closure of Snow Hill, closure of Moor Street was intended, as passenger traffic fell the presumption appears that services would all be able to be accommodated at New Street, as the remaining services from the North into Snow Hill (via Stourbridge Junction) could be. I don't think this ever got as far as a plan because there was always too much demand at peak times to not run peak time additionals, and these could not be accommodated at New Street.

 

[Sprinter107]

Birmingham Moor Street was to close at the beginning of May 1969, along with Bordesley and the North Warwickshire line between Tyseley and Bearley Junction. It was reprieved at the same time as that line. However, off peak, it was very quiet, as most of the Leamington trains were diverted into New Street, just leaving the hourly Stratford via Shirley trains. Peak hours, it livened up a bit with extra trains on both North Warwicks and Leamington lines.
When the North Warwicks line lost its evening service, Moor Street closed after the last North Warwicks train left at 18.40 ish. All of the evening Leamington stoppers ran to and from New Street for many years. I think it was anout 1980ish when an experimental evening service between Moor Street and Earlswood was introduced, using just one unit, that contining, but cut back to Shirley. It was closed on Bank Holidays right into the 1980s, with both Stratford and Leamington trains using the fast line platforms at Small Heath, and taking an extra seven minutes to run into New Street instead.

 

[nw1]

Snow Hill to Wolves LL was left with such a poor service that it was doomed to be a failure.

Yes, have seen that in an old LM timetable. One wonders what its patronage would have been like with say an even 20-minute-interval service, and 10-min interval in the peaks, more befitting of an urban route?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Yes, have seen that in an old LM timetable. One wonders what its patronage would have been like with say an even 20-minute-interval service, and 10-min interval in the peaks, more befitting of an urban route?

The nature of the 'Black Country' in the 1960s - distinct industrial towns with different trades, shift working, very little housing actually near the stations, no history of 'white collar' commuting to Birmingham for work or education, etc. means that traditional views of 'suburbia' are irrelevant.

Can I ask if you lived in the West Midlands at the time?

 

[L+Y]

At what point was the track actually lifted through the tunnels between Snow Hill and Moor Street? When did the last trains run through?

 

[ac6000cw]

The nature of the 'Black Country' in the 1960s - distinct industrial towns with different trades, shift working, very little housing actually near the stations, no history of 'white collar' commuting to Birmingham for work or education, etc. means that traditional views of 'suburbia' are irrelevant.

Exactly right (I grew up in the Black Country in the 1960s/70s).

The local train service on the B'ham - Wolverhampton 'Stour Valley' route via Dudley Port was only 1 tph.

Buses were much more important than trains for local transport.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

At what point was the track actually lifted through the tunnels between Snow Hill and Moor Street? When did the last trains run through?

Last train running through the Birmingham Snow Hill tunnel in service was in March 1968, I believe. See link below...

Birmingham Snow Hill Station: Snow Hill station staff Mr Wye and Mr Doherty see off the 17 52pm to Leamington Spa which was the last train to pass through Snow Hill tunnel - Warwickshire Railways

When was the trackwork through the Snow Hill tunnel actually subsequently lifted, though? Anyone able to advise?

 

[nw1]

The nature of the 'Black Country' in the 1960s - distinct industrial towns with different trades, shift working, very little housing actually near the stations, no history of 'white collar' commuting to Birmingham for work or education, etc. means that traditional views of 'suburbia' are irrelevant.

Can I ask if you lived in the West Midlands at the time?

No, I didn't, sorry - I wasn't even alive in the 1960s if I am honest. But I was just making the assumption (admittedly flawed) that in an urban area, a high frequency and regular-interval service to the city centre would attract traffic - perhaps partly based off the fact that the same route now has a high-frequency tram service.

 

[Dr Hoo]

No, I didn't, sorry - I wasn't even alive in the 1960s if I am honest. But I was just making the assumption (admittedly flawed) that in an urban area, a high frequency and regular-interval service to the city centre would attract traffic - perhaps partly based off the fact that the same route now has a high-frequency tram service.

Well; with deviations at both ends and many additional stops that would have been infeasible for heavy rail. And after 50 years of redevelopment, land remediation and so on.

 

[Sprinter107]

The commuting in the 1950s and 1960 from East and West of Snow Hill was very different. Before my time, but family caught those trains. The trains from Solihull and Shirley lines carried far more commuters into Birmingham than those coming in from Stourbridge and Wolverhampton, as was posted earlier, many Black Country people lived near to where they worked, but there was commuting between the local stations on those routes. Workers to the many factories at Langley Green, and Smethwick, also Hockley.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The commuting in the 1950s and 1960 from East and West of Snow Hill was very different. Before my time, but family caught those trains. The trains from Solihull and Shirley lines carried far more commuters into Birmingham than those coming in from Stourbridge and Wolverhampton, as was posted earlier, many Black Country people lived near to where they worked, but there was commuting between the local stations on those routes. Workers to the many factories at Langley Green, and Smethwick, also Hockley.

Yes I could loosely describe the areas served to the South East from Moor Street as commuter belt white collar. Certainly more so than the "black country" industrial areas between Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Stourbridge. The line up to Lichfield is also serving White Collar areas (judging by my knowledge of the Royal Borough of Sutton Coldfield).

 

[Dave W]

Suggest those who are interested review the Stourbridge Line User Group (yes, SLUG!) timetables to see what was what. I’ve posted elsewhere before about how sparse the service was, even into the 1980s. Far less than the pre-COVID frequency which was just about every 10 minutes from Stourbridge.

Timetables

www.stourbridgelineusergroup.info

 

[Sprinter107]

Yes I could loosely describe the areas served to the South East from Moor Street as commuter belt white collar. Certainly more so than the "black country" industrial areas between Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Stourbridge. The line up to Lichfield is also serving White Collar areas (judging by my knowledge of the Royal Borough of Sutton

I would think you are right there. Suppose the Sutton line was very similar to the Solihull line back in the 50s and 60s. My family used the Snow Hill lines at that time, not the New Street lines, so I've only heard what they were like. So different to today in some ways, as all routes into Birmingham carry heavy commuter traffic, obviously more before Covid, but still holding their own even now.

 

[ac6000cw]

I first got interested in railways in about 1972, and the Stourbridge - Birmingham route was my local line. Back then the service was basically 1 tph plus peak time extras, mostly run as Kidderminster - Lichfield trains, with a few extended to/from Worcester and Hereford, and operated by rattly Cl.116 'Derby Suburban' 3-car non-corridor, no toilet DMUs (and Hereford to Birmingham was a 2+ hour journey!).

New Street - Sutton Coldfield - Four Oaks was 2 tph off-peak overall.

Today's service is a complete transformation compared to 50 years ago!

Yes I could loosely describe the areas served to the South East from Moor Street as commuter belt white collar. Certainly more so than the "black country" industrial areas between Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Stourbridge. The line up to Lichfield is also serving White Collar areas (judging by my knowledge of the Royal Borough of Sutton Coldfield).

I agree with that.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So the closure of Moor Street was part of the plan or not?

No, it wasn't.
Nor were Birmingham Snow Hill or Wolverhampton LL.
The apparent big loser on the day was Walsall, with routes to Rugeley, Lichfield, Dudley, Wolverhampton HL and the Sutton Park line on the list.
Stourbridge-Worcester-Hereford was down to be "modified", as was Birmingham New St-Worcester (presumably via Bromsgrove).

 

[gg1]

Last train running through the Birmingham Snow Hill tunnel in service was in March 1968, I believe. See link below...

Birmingham Snow Hill Station: Snow Hill station staff Mr Wye and Mr Doherty see off the 17 52pm to Leamington Spa which was the last train to pass through Snow Hill tunnel - Warwickshire Railways

When was the trackwork through the Snow Hill tunnel actually subsequently lifted, though? Anyone able to advise?

It had definitely gone to October 1970, can't post the image itself from reason but in the 5th photo down at the link below the tunnel portal would be behind the photographer.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/birmingham_snow_hill/index2.shtml