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Waterloo East to Waterloo connection?

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grove

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With the interest in European sleeper services from the UK (from Germany and Spain) does a connection between the two Waterloo stations look any more likely? Could it be part of a network from the South West to the Channel Tunnel? As Thameslink demonstrates a through connection has a vastly improved capacity compared to a terminus.

What are there other journey possibilities this connection would enable?
 
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miami

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As in allowing trains to run from Vauxhall via Waterloo to London Bridge?

I can't think of a single reason to do such a thing
 

JonathanH

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With the interest in European sleeper services from the UK (from Germany and Spain) does a connection between the two Waterloo stations look any more likely?
No. How would a sleeper service make a through connection at Waterloo more likely?
 

grove

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As in allowing trains to run from Vauxhall via Waterloo to London Bridge?

I can't think of a single reason to do such a thing
Yes, it seems a 'low cost' Crossrail 3.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

No. How would a sleeper service make a through connection at Waterloo more likely?
OK, not necessarily just sleeper services but anything from the South or South West is 'land-locked by Waterloo at the moment.
 
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JonathanH

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Yes, it seems a 'low cost' Crossrail 3.
It wouldn't have a low cost though and is somewhat unnecessary.

OK, not necessarily just sleeper services but anything from the South or South West is 'land-locked by Waterloo at the moment.
Waterloo has a lot of platforms though and essentially the number of trains than can run into it is constrained by the approach lines as well.
 

zwk500

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Yes, it seems a 'low cost' Crossrail 3.
Define low-cost? You're building a running line through the concourse of Waterloo station. That's going to take a bit of work. Surely if you want to connect the South-West to the continent with a through Sleeper train then running via Chertsey and Calling at Clapham Junction before taking the connecting lines to Brixton would be an easier solution?
 

miami

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There's very little capacity on the through lines at London Bridge. I guess you could run say 2tph through to Cannon Street (off peak) via the West facing chord.

If you did replace some Charing Cross services you've then got delays at Tonbridge affecting services from Guildford to London.

And where does the sleeper come into it? If there were sleepers from London (and there won't be), they'd run from St Pancras
 

WideRanger

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There used to be such running lines - you can still see remnants of it around the pedestrian bridge between the two parts. One major problem is that it would split Waterloo in two, and that would have a massive impact on pedestrian capacity. So I would think that you would want to have a very good reason for doing it before reinstating that facility.
 

miami

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"Used to be" as in a short experiemnt in the times of HG Wells. It vanished in 1911

 

swt_passenger

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A sleeper could already run from the south west via the GWML and the NLL towards the channel tunnel via HS1. And with a London call at Stratford.
 

Horizon22

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Yes, it seems a 'low cost' Crossrail 3.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


OK, not necessarily just sleeper services but anything from the South or South West is 'land-locked by Waterloo at the moment.

What do you mean "land-locked'? You could make the argument about any London terminal right now; the only exception is Thameslink runs through St. Pancras / London Bridge which was a historical link and still cost £billions to upgrade. Waterloo to Waterloo East is a fairly trivial walk.

Also what is particularly special about the South West? A better option might have been to connect HS2 to HS1 if we were considering connectivity for potential sleepers but that was discounted some time ago.
 

miami

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A fantasy would have sleeper cars from Plymouth/Exeter, Cardiff/Bristol, Leeds/Manchester, Glasgow/Edinburgh, arriving at London, and being recombined into a flight of sleepers leaving for Spain/Italy/Germany/Switzerland - a bit like how US flights work at the hubs

But that's not how the railway works, or indeed how flights work nowadays

In theory an evening train to meet an 11pm departure from London off to the continent would be ok, so the question is the difficulty of crossing London.
 

MarkyT

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Waterloo to Waterloo East is a fairly trivial walk.
It's a very convenient connection from the South West to Kent services today, avoiding a tube transfer. I doubt the numbers making such an interchange would ever be sufficient to justify linking the networks and there would be increased risk, especially for longer distance routes, of performance pollution migrating between SW and SE. London, and its wider UK connections via tube, will always be the desired destination of the vast majority of passengers on both SW and SE.
 

Horizon22

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It's a very convenient connection from the South West to Kent services today, avoiding a tube transfer. I doubt the numbers making such an interchange would ever be sufficient to justify linking the networks and there would be increased risk, especially for longer distance routes, of performance pollution migrating between SW and SE. London, and its wider UK connections via tube, will always be the desired destination of the vast majority of passengers on both SW and SE.

Indeed. It's a well used link, but it's not at some extreme level that would warrant a brand new and highly disruptive connection through the middle of London (and Waterloo itself). Instead it would be more worthwhile pursuing Crossrail 2.
 

londonteacher

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With the interest in European sleeper services from the UK (from Germany and Spain) does a connection between the two Waterloo stations look any more likely? Could it be part of a network from the South West to the Channel Tunnel? As Thameslink demonstrates a through connection has a vastly improved capacity compared to a terminus.

What are there other journey possibilities this connection would enable?
The south west could also use Crossrail (as it would be late at night or early morning) and travel via North Kent to the tunnel in a very roundabout way.
 

MotCO

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Wouldn't the best way for anyone from the South West wanting to go to Kent, be via the Reading - Redhill - Tonridge lines?
 

30907

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Wouldn't the best way for anyone from the South West wanting to go to Kent, be via the Reading - Redhill - Tonridge lines?
Only if you were using the GWR route, and there was a reasonably fast service.

Back to Waterloo East: there are only 2 running lines through the Borough Market area (the Thameslink pair is spoken for!), compared with 8 approaching Waterloo Main, so even if you closed Charing Cross (which was IIRC suggested last century) you could only run about 1/3 of the SWR service through.
 

tomuk

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A fantasy would have sleeper cars from Plymouth/Exeter, Cardiff/Bristol, Leeds/Manchester, Glasgow/Edinburgh, arriving at London, and being recombined into a flight of sleepers leaving for Spain/Italy/Germany/Switzerland - a bit like how US flights work at the hubs

But that's not how the railway works, or indeed how flights work nowadays

In theory an evening train to meet an 11pm departure from London off to the continent would be ok, so the question is the difficulty of crossing London.
And we could get Alstom to build some sleeper stock which could be hauled by 92s or 37s for the diesel sections and we could call it NightStar. And when it fails due to being financially unviable we could sell the stock to the Canadians
 

MarkyT

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Wouldn't the best way for anyone from the South West wanting to go to Kent, be via the Reading - Redhill - Tonridge lines?
I was thinking mainly from the LSWR mainline. From GWR territory, via Reading - Guildford - Redhill is an option, but further changes at Redhill and Tonbridge and possibly Ashford are required for many destinations in the East of Kent, so that route can be slow and inconvenient. Probably better to go into Paddington and get the tube over to Victoria, Charing Cross, or London Bridge, unless you want to take advantage of cheaper 'not via London' fares where available..
 

tomuk

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I was thinking mainly from the LSWR mainline. From GWR territory, via Reading - Guildford - Redhill is an option, but further changes at Redhill and Tonbridge and possibly Ashford are required for many destinations in the East of Kent, so that route can be slow and inconvenient. Probably better to go into Paddington and get the tube over to Victoria, Charing Cross, or London Bridge, unless you want to take advantage of cheaper 'not via London' fares where available..
For anybody east of at least Salisbury, even maybe Yeovil, it would be quickest to take SWR to London and change at either Clapham Junction and go to Victoria or stay on to Waterloo for Charing Cross services at Waterloo East. For routes served by HS1 services Clapham-Victoria-Victoria Line-St Pancras is quickest.
 

miami

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we could call it NightStar.

The question is if there's increased appetite for sleeper trains due to the environment (Nightstar was proposed and shakey back in the days before 'no-frills' airlines).

I'm not convinced people are willing to put their comfort and money in, an uncomfy sleeper train from Geneva to London at 6pm overnight, arriving 6am, or a 7am flight form Geneva arriving at City at 8:30 and office for 9am, or a 6pm flight from Geneva the night before arriving at hotel about 8pm in time for dinner and drinks before a good night's rest.
 

swt_passenger

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The question is if there's increased appetite for sleeper trains due to the environment (Nightstar was proposed and shakey back in the days before 'no-frills' airlines).
i think a few previous replies have missed the original question which seemed to be about facilitating through sleeper services from the SW. There’s also the border controls question that makes through services around GB unmanageable.

Most previous discussions about this always came back to the idea that a practical continental sleeper would have to depart St Pancras in late evening, and you’d get to St Pancras using conventional means as you do now.
 

Bald Rick

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The idea of linking Waterloo and Waterloo East with rails comes up from time to time, and may even have done so on these pages. It is simply not practical on any level.

The idea of Sleepers from London - Europe comes up from time to time, and certainly has done so on these pages. It is simply not economical on any level.
 

miklcct

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It's a very convenient connection from the South West to Kent services today, avoiding a tube transfer.

Wouldn't the best way for anyone from the South West wanting to go to Kent, be via the Reading - Redhill - Tonridge lines?

If I remember correctly even with the tube connection, getting to St Prancas for the high speed line to Kent is still faster than using the low speed railway direct from Waterloo East.
 

MotCO

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If I remember correctly even with the tube connection, getting to St Prancas for the high speed line to Kent is still faster than using the low speed railway direct from Waterloo East.
Probably, but I was wondering about a new route, not requiring any changes. (Maybe it should be a Speculative Idea?)
 

MarkyT

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The idea of Sleepers from London - Europe comes up from time to time, and certainly has done so on these pages. It is simply not economical on any level.
Although of all places in the UK, London St Pancras is still the only vaguely practical place in the UK to serve the Continent by sleeper train from, and is pretty easy to get to from the rest of the UK for a mid to late evening departure. Possibly the biggest economic barrier would be the relatively small quantity of very specialist and thus expensive new rolling stock required, suitable for operation through the Channel Tunnel. The expense compounds the general stock utilisation problem with sleepers; they can only make a single one-way journey per night.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If I remember correctly even with the tube connection, getting to St Prancas for the high speed line to Kent is still faster than using the low speed railway direct from Waterloo East.
Further reaches of East Kent certainly, Ashford and beyond. Possibly Medway Towns. Even if a similar or slightly shorter journey time on HS1, I'd prefer to avoid the tube transfer personally, and remember fares via St P are more expensive.
 
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Potentially bonkers suggestion here. Would it be possible to build a 2 or 4 track connection from Waterloo to Waterloo East, so that trains could come in to Waterloo then out via London Bridge in order to simplify operations in central London and avoid conflicting train movements from needing to reverse so many trains at these big termini?
 

JonathanH

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A few questions to explore:

Which operations would it simplify?

Is it actually a problem to operate Waterloo and Charing Cross in the manner they currently operate?

How many through platforms would be needed at the combined Waterloo / Waterloo East to deal with the dwell time needed to load the trains?

Why hasn't it been done before now? (Of course, it has actually been done before but the connection was taken out.)
 
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