Watford Junction to Amersham

[PeterY]

I've been reading in the press lately, once the Met has been extended to Watford Junction, the possibilities of running a direct service between Watford Junction and Amersham, using the north curve. (I can't find any previous discussion on the forum)

I'm sure it'd create a lot of new travel opportunities with The Chiltern services from Aylesbury, if timed correctly. Though ticketing maybe an issue.

Thoughts please

 

[Bald Rick]

Very unlikely. Needs another unit, and they cost money. Also such a route is outside London, so why would TfL fund it? Especially as all it does is cut out a change of train and a short wait at Moor Park. The market is hardly huge.

 

[PeterC]

This idea has had a lot of publicity but little thought about the practicalities. A direct service would probably pull some commuter traffic off the roads around Watford and might transfer a little shopping traffic away from the frequent (by country standards) bus service from Chesham and Amersham to Wycombe but there aren't spare units laying around.

 

[swt_passenger]

They could run a service now, but to Watford Met. But other than the early and late positioning moves they don't bother. The probable reason is there's no known business case.

It was also looked at in the consultations prior to development of the case for the Croxley Link (Watford Jn extension), and IIRC they also decided it wasn't worth doing. I once found all the consultation papers online but they seem to have gone...

 

[Nym]

Not that there's likely to be any platform capacity left at the likes of either Watford Junction or Watford Met after the SUP finishes with a complete signalling upgrade and post SUP service levels that are currently proposed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It wouldn't create any new travel opportunities that a cross-platform interchange at Moor Park doesn't already provide.

 

[PeterY]

It wouldn't create any new travel opportunities that a cross-platform interchange at Moor Park doesn't already provide.

Just as the train from Watford is pulling into Moor Park, there's a train that's just left, heading in the Rickmansworth direction. So you've already got a wait of 15 minutes at Moor Park. If you wanted to go further than Amersham, then you need to change twice to Chiltern Railways.

Another distinct possibility in the future, once the East West route is completed, is the long round via Aylesbury to Milton Keynes using Chiltern railways. I can't see that happening either.

 

[edwin_m]

Another distinct possibility in the future, once the East West route is completed, is the long round via Aylesbury to Milton Keynes using Chiltern railways. I can't see that happening either.

Few "normals" are going to want to use that right through, but it has a lot of intermediate journey possibilities: London-Wycombe, Wycombe-Aylesbury, Wycombe-MK etc etc, including some that aren't easily possible by changing between existing services. So it ought to attract a good number of passengers for minimum extra operating cost as other trains would otherwise be doing most of the journey anyway. Whereas an Amersham-Watford service would only save people a change at Moor Park as stated - but would involve the extra operating cost of running trains over the whole distance.

 

[PeterC]

I would doubt that there is enough suppressed demand to justify a North Curve service but if it was tried it would be better as a Chiltern service giving more journey opportunities from Missenden, Wendover and Aylesbury as well as an improved link from Amersham, Chorleywood and Rickmansworth.

While combining with an Aylesbury - MK service would have no benefit for WJ - MK through passengers it would open up MK by public transport for the area between Rickmansworth and Aylesbury.

I am of course ignoring rolling stock availability issues here.

 

[edwin_m]

I would doubt that there is enough suppressed demand to justify a North Curve service but if it was tried it would be better as a Chiltern service giving more journey opportunities from Missenden, Wendover and Aylesbury as well as an improved link from Amersham, Chorleywood and Rickmansworth.

While combining with an Aylesbury - MK service would have no benefit for WJ - MK through passengers it would open up MK by public transport for the area between Rickmansworth and Aylesbury.

I am of course ignoring rolling stock availability issues here.

Your probably right about it having to be Chiltern, although that introduces the extra issue of whether their units are compatible with the Watford Met branch and Croxley Link.

 

[Nym]

Your probably right about it having to be Chiltern, although that introduces the extra issue of whether their units are compatible with the Watford Met branch and Croxley Link.

Compatible yes, might be an issue with gauging, cleared; probably not.

 

[edwin_m]

Compatible yes, might be an issue with gauging, cleared; probably not.

What's happening when the shared Met/Chiltern parts are re-signalled? I would expect they'd take the easier route of retaining tripcocks or substituting TPWS but in either case operated by the new equipment, rather than the potential nightmare of fitting a Metro TBTC to a DMU most of which are 15+ years old. Although the same solution would probably be used between High Street and Junction for the Overground service, there would be no need to fit the section in between unless some sort of through service like this one was envisaged.

 

[Nym]

What's happening when the shared Met/Chiltern parts are re-signalled? I would expect they'd take the easier route of retaining tripcocks or substituting TPWS but in either case operated by the new equipment, rather than the potential nightmare of fitting a Metro TBTC to a DMU most of which are 15+ years old. Although the same solution would probably be used between High Street and Junction for the Overground service, there would be no need to fit the section in between unless some sort of through service like this one was envisaged.

I have absolutely no idea yet.

But you are correct in that a moving block signalling system such as CF650 or TBTC (S40) is not very simple to combine and/or integrate onto any non-homogenized stock. This includes Chiltern Stock, but also the 66s on RHTTs on the Met Fasts, A60 RAT, Battery Locomotives, Engineering Vehicles and other alien train moments.

And in my opinion, this needs to be very seriously considered when any new system is installed or overlayed.

I do have some very reasonable ideas that could be integrated into the design without very much hassle at all, with a few overlay / handover points on the network locked with a form of fixed block SSI and then handing in/out to a moving block system (if installed) using wayside limits of authority (as are already used on points and crossings). This would handle any handover points with Network Rail track (Watford High St Junction, Great Missenden, Neasden, Gunnersbury and a few other potential points), while allowing a high core tph, without unessesarry upgrades in other areas.