Weekend London Victoria - Gatwick Aiport diversions via Horsham. Contactless/Oyster PAYG valid?

[hkstudent]

This weekend, since Redhill - Gatwick Airport section will be closed, there are trains from Victoria to Gatwick Airport that will travel via Horsham.

Given that Gatwick Airport is a tourist-heavy station, assuming the station will have quite a bit of occasional oyster card users.

The problem is: since Horsham and Three Bridges are not within the Contactless/Oyster PAYG area, would a passenger travelling from London Victoria to Gatwick Airport potentially be issued a Penalty Fare?

 

[JonathanH]

The problem is: since Horsham and Three Bridges are not within the Oystercard area, would a passenger travelling from London Victoria to Gatwick Aiport potentially be penalty fared?

They will certainly not be able to leave the stations on the way between Ashtead and Three Bridges even if Oyster is allowed between Victoria and Gatwick on diverted trains.

I think there have been previous occasions when Oyster / Contactless has been allowed to Gatwick when diversions have led to passengers taking an out of area diversion.

 

[Wolfie]

This weekend, since Redhill - Gatwick Airport section will be closed, there are trains to Gatwick Airport from Victoria to Gatwick Airport that will go via Gatwick Airport.
Given that Gatwick Airport is a tourist-heavy station, assuming the station will have quite a bit of occasional oyster card users.

The problem is: since Horsham and Three Bridges are not within the Oystercard area, would a passenger travelling from London Victoria to Gatwick Aiport potentially be penalty fared?

Your first para is confusing and undoubtedly has an error in it. Would l be right in thinking that the correct text is "there are trains to Gatwick Airport from Victoria to Gatwick Airport that will go via Horsham" given the title of this thread?

 

[Watershed]

This weekend, since Redhill - Gatwick Airport section will be closed, there are trains to Gatwick Airport from Victoria to Gatwick Airport that will via Horsham
Given that Gatwick Airport is a tourist-heavy station, assuming the station will have quite a bit of occasional oyster card users.

The problem is: since Horsham and Three Bridges are not within the Oystercard area, would a passenger travelling from London Victoria to Gatwick Aiport potentially be penalty fared?

Oyster validity is a 'strict liability' matter - you are only allowed to travel within the area of validity (this being the corollary of there being no concept of 'permitted routes').

So no, Oyster would not be valid on the diversion, because you would be travelling out with the area of validity.

Whether it would be accepted in practice is a different matter, but unless GTR unequivocally state that they are accepting validated Oyster cards on diverted services, I would steer clear of doing this.

 

[infobleep]

Oyster validity is a 'strict liability' matter - you are only allowed to travel within the area of validity (this being the corollary of there being no concept of 'permitted routes').

So no, Oyster would not be valid on the diversion, because you would be travelling out with the area of validity.

Whether it would be accepted in practice is a different matter, but unless GTR unequivocally state that they are accepting validated Oyster cards on diverted services, I would steer clear of doing this.

Surely they should be advising people they are not valid, if they don't want such journey's to be made.

 

[londonbridge]

It should be allowed in my opinion, after all it is not the fault of the passenger that a service on which it is usually valid has been diverted.

 

[JonathanH]

It should be allowed in my opinion, after all it is not the fault of the passenger that a service on which it is usually valid has been diverted.

The option to travel via Redhill and take a bus exists within the Oyster area.

 

[island]

Whatever about the theoreticals, in practice I am 99% sure that anyone desirous of using contactless or Oyster to travel between Gatwick and a station at which they could normally use contactless or Oyster will be permitted to do so and anyone attempting to use it at one of the intermediate stations will end up with an incomplete journey and maximum fare.

 

[Goldfish62]

It should be allowed in my opinion, after all it is not the fault of the passenger that a service on which it is usually valid has been diverted.

Indeed. It would surely be outrageous if they weren't allowed, but nothing would surprise me with the current user-unfriendliness of the railways.

 

[infobleep]

Indeed. It would surely be outrageous if they weren't allowed, but nothing would surprise me with the current user-unfriendliness of the railways.

Well etickets aren't valid on buses in London when there is disruption or timetable changes requiring the use of buses. Same for Underground.

 

[mattdickinson]

Chiltern have accepted Oyster PAYG on RRBs from High Wycombe to Amersham in the past, even reminding passengers to touch out at Amersham by leaning over the gates.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well etickets aren't valid on buses in London when there is disruption or timetable changes requiring the use of buses. Same for Underground.

If you're travelling from Victoria to Gatwick Airport the readers at both stations will accept Oyster / Contactless irrespective of which route the train takes so there's no case whatsoever for not accepting them on diversions. If someone was to disembark at an intermediate station that would be a completely different matter because Oyster/contactless are only valid at named stations between the London boundary and Gatwick.

However, if GTR does indeed decide they're not valid on a diverted train it'll doubtless put a few more more people off using the train and that seems to be the objective of the railways these days.

 

[mmh]

However, if GTR does indeed decide they're not valid on a diverted train it'll doubtless put a few more more people off using the train and that seems to be the objective of the railways these days.

I think it's far more likely that GTR haven't considered it, or even if they have they don't care. Why would they?

This feels like looking for an issue which doesn't exist.

 

[Alex365Dash]

The option to travel via Redhill and take a bus exists within the Oyster area.

Add to that there also being an hourly Thameslink service between Redhill and Brighton via Gatwick Airport, giving passengers the option to make an Oyster journey entirely by rail within the Oyster area, albeit with a change.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think it's far more likely that GTR haven't considered it, or even if they have they don't care. Why would they?

This feels like looking for an issue which doesn't exist.

Agreed, but we do love creating issues which don't exist on this forum.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I think it's far more likely that GTR haven't considered it, or even if they have they don't care. Why would they?

This feels like looking for an issue which doesn't exist.

This
People planning the train service around engineering works won't know or care about tickets, and the people dealing with tickets won't know about engineering works.
The rules will be made up on the day by staff who won't have received any briefings

 

[75A]

This
People planning the train service around engineering works won't know or care about tickets, and the people dealing with tickets won't know about engineering works.
The rules will be made up on the day by staff who won't have received any briefings

Spot on.

 

[Watershed]

This
People planning the train service around engineering works won't know or care about tickets, and the people dealing with tickets won't know about engineering works.
The rules will be made up on the day by staff who won't have received any briefings

Those who are planning it will care about the validity of tickets during engineering works, if they are conscientious in their work.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Those who are planning it will care about the validity of tickets during engineering works, if they are conscientious in their work.

They won't even realise there's an issue. It won't be in the planners' remit to worry about tickets

 

[Kite159]

Assuming Oyster/Contactless isn't accepted, would something like a West Hampstead Thameslink - Gatwick Airport ticket (this one https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=WHP&dest=GTW&grpo=0265&rte=500&ldn=1&tkt=CBA) will be valid on the diverted Victoria - Gatwick trains? (Going West Hampstead - St Pancras/Blackfriars - LU to Victoria - Gatwick)

 

[MikeWh]

People planning the train service around engineering works won't know or care about tickets

Those who are planning it will care about the validity of tickets during engineering works, if they are conscientious in their work.

They won't even realise there's an issue. It won't be in the planners' remit to worry about tickets

So can you explain how we get lots of easements added to the routing guide to enable tickets to be valid on diversionary routes?

 

[yorkie]

They won't even realise there's an issue. It won't be in the planners' remit to worry about tickets

Then they need to refer the matter to a suitably trained/qualified person.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Then they need to refer the matter to a suitably trained/qualified person.

Surely its the fares people who should pick up on it, rather than the people planning the train service?

 

[Watershed]

They won't even realise there's an issue. It won't be in the planners' remit to worry about tickets

TOCs should have the procedures in place to ensure that ticket acceptance/easements etc. go hand in hand with planning engineering work.

The planners will not necessarily know exactly what is needed but at the very least they should be communicating with the relevant department/team in their company, to appraise them of what is happening when there are unusual diversions.

 

[Surreytraveller]

So can you explain how we get lots of easements added to the routing guide to enable tickets to be valid on diversionary routes?

Are Oysters included in the Routeing Guide, considering they zonal tickets?

TOCs should have the procedures in place to ensure that ticket acceptance/easements etc. go hand in hand with planning engineering work.

The planners will not necessarily know exactly what is needed but at the very least they should be communicating with the relevant department/team in their company, to appraise them of what is happening when there are unusual diversions.

What 'should', and what 'does' happen are two different things. I'm not disagreeing with you, but this is real life. Bear in mind its now February and they're still operating their Christmas Holiday timetable

 

[yorkie]

Surely its the fares people who should pick up on it, rather than the people planning the train service?

I'd expect the two departments to liaise with each other.

Are Oysters included in the Routeing Guide, considering they zonal tickets?

Oyster is just a medium for holding products. PAYG is outwith the scope of the Routeing Guide.

What 'should', and what 'does' happen are two different things....

Yes, poor practice is not uncommon at some train companies, sadly.

 

[Surreytraveller]

So can you explain how we get lots of easements added to the routing guide to enable tickets to be valid on diversionary routes?

Oysters (PAYG), as @yorkie advises, is outside the scope of the Routeing Guide

I'd expect the two departments to liaise with each other.

Oyster is just a medium for holding products. PAYG is outwith the scope of the Routeing Guide.

Yes, poor practice is not uncommon at some train companies, sadly.

Over the years a lot of experience has been lost before being given the chance to be passed onto newer staff

 

[yorkie]

Oysters (PAYG), as @yorkie advises, is outside the scope of the Routeing Guide

That doesn't negate @MikeWh's point!

Over the years a lot of experience has been lost before being given the chance to be passed onto newer staff

This is a problem at some TOCs but it's not acceptable.

 

[Surreytraveller]

That doesn't negate @MikeWh's point!

This is a problem at some TOCs but it's not acceptable.

Does GTR publish easements in the Routeing Guide in relation to engineering works? I haven't read it for several years

Obviously its not acceptable about unreplaced experience, but maybe the chickens are now coming home to roost. Not that it'll make any difference, as its the passengers that suffer

 

[Watershed]

What 'should', and what 'does' happen are two different things. I'm not disagreeing with you, but this is real life. Bear in mind its now February and they're still operating their Christmas Holiday timetable

Indeed. Hence the epithet 'conscientious' in my earlier post!