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What could be done to improve the Welsh Marches route?

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LNW-GW Joint

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Adding to this, I think it's high time that Wrexham General gets resignalled for BiDi signalling in P1/2 or a link it out in from Chester to Platform 3, it would ease situations like this and would save the few trains per day reversing in Croes Newydd so enable better engineering access and save on staff pay as they could cut 20 minutes off the start or finish of shifts.

mods note - split from this thread

If you mean the loop south of Croes Newydd North Fork box (Watery Rd), it's a goods loop.
It's not signalled for passenger movements, so wouldn't have been available.

While you're right about Wrexham resignalling, and the use of the loop for reversing trains from the north, there's no money.
 
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The true elephant in the room is the terrible infrastructure, both signalling and track on the Salop. Vanity and heritage aside it's time the lot got ripped out and resignalled, and the line made more resilient against the forces of nature. Modernisation oh that's a dodgy word. :smile:
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The true elephant in the room is the terrible infrastructure, both signalling and track on the Salop. Vanity and heritage aside it's time the lot got ripped out and resignalled, and the line made more resilient against the forces of nature. Modernisation oh that's a dodgy word. :smile:
Shrewsbury(excl)-Nantwich has been resignalled recently and is largely a 90mph route.
So has Shrewsbury-Gobowen (with line speed mostly increased from 70 to 90mph).
Shrewsbury (again excl)-Wolverhampton was also resignalled not so long ago (no line speed upgrade).
Wrexham-Chester has been partially redoubled (10 single miles reduced to 5, and new sections at 90mph rather than 60).
The Marches route is down for resignalling but might have to wait for ETCS.
Some of this investment is down to pressure (and cash) from the Welsh government to reduce journey times between north and south Wales.
 

The Planner

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Marches had a design and was close to being done, got canned for life extension instead.
 

zwk500

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The true elephant in the room is the terrible infrastructure, both signalling and track on the Salop. Vanity and heritage aside it's time the lot got ripped out and resignalled, and the line made more resilient against the forces of nature. Modernisation oh that's a dodgy word. :smile:
Should certainly be some effort made Wrexham-Shrewsbury Crewe Jn, that bit's straightforward enough (although service level struggles to justify investment ahead of other lines). But AIUI Shrewsbury station itself loses a hell of a lot of capacity when modern overlaps begin to be applied, whereas tinkering with the existing stuff at Severn Jn end preserves the Grandfather rights. Similar thing to Worcester. ETCS would eliminate the problem, a new colour-light scheme might be possible but it'd be a much simpler (i.e. less flexible) design.
 

Watershed

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Shrewsbury(excl)-Nantwich has been resignalled recently and is largely a 90mph route.
Resignalled, yes, but on an extremely tight budget. Most of the signal sections are very long and just mirror the previous AB layout. So the "new" signalling has essentially no capacity benefit over what came before.

Wrexham-Chester has been partially redoubled (10 single miles reduced to 5, and new sections at 90mph rather than 60).
Again, another case where the budget ran out and so the job was only half done.

This bit of the country really has got a raw deal when it comes to railway infrastructure.
 

Llanigraham

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Marches had a design and was close to being done, got canned for life extension instead.

When I joined the Marches route we were told that we would be out of a job by 2013, and that date gradually slipped further and further back. Considering at that time the estimate was a million pounds per Box, and between Salop and Hereford there are 11 boxes, plus the redundancy packages needed, it is quite obvious that there is now no money to do this now that costs will have vastly increased.
 

The Planner

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Resignalled, yes, but on an extremely tight budget. Most of the signal sections are very long and just mirror the previous AB layout. So the "new" signalling has essentially no capacity benefit over what came before.


Again, another case where the budget ran out and so the job was only half done.

This bit of the country really has got a raw deal when it comes to railway infrastructure.
Wrexham Saltney was a political thing, NR strategically wouldnt have looked at it. As for Shrewsbury Crewe, less said about that one the better.
 

Topological

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What would be needed to operate a Cardiff to Abergavenny train to allow the longer distance Marches trains to skip Pontypool and New Inn and possibly Cwmbran? (Assuming that the stopper will be in front of either the Manchester or Holyhead and would therefore arrive in Abergavenny not long after the stopper. I appreciate it would not be good to leave people waiting at Abergavenny too long)

As a user of the line it always feels like there inexplicable delays where the train will just stop for a few minutes and then run normally. Presumably it is the length of some of the signal blocks, but it often happens between Crewe and Shrewsbury and between near where all the masts are (I think it is between Leominster and Ludlow, my apologies if I have the wrong two stations)
 

Topological

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Correct yes Woofferton. I think it's the 158s that have that issue due to the ERTMS.

I had it a lot on the 175s when they used to work. I liked to think it was because there was some important signal being sent/received and they did not want the train to get in the way :)
 

Ken H

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Its got loads of level crossings oncluding one at Onibury over the main A49. They need sorting.
 

zwk500

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What would be needed to operate a Cardiff to Abergavenny train to allow the longer distance Marches trains to skip Pontypool and New Inn and possibly Cwmbran? (Assuming that the stopper will be in front of either the Manchester or Holyhead and would therefore arrive in Abergavenny not long after the stopper. I appreciate it would not be good to leave people waiting at Abergavenny too long)
It depends on what shunt moves are available. From what I can see on the signal diagrams (https://tillyweb.biz/gallery/aa/abergavenny.htm) It is possible to shunt from one platform to another but it is not possible to shunt from the platforms to the goods sidings/loops directly so the moves will be complicated - arrive Up platform, reverse out to Down Section Signal, reverse back across in to Up sidings, Wait for northbound train, then shunt into platform, wait for southbound train, then shunt into southbound platform via crossover. Overall 4 reversals. Hence the times allowed below:

Tabletop timetable assessment from RTT:
Although the service pattern is not regular each hour (So I've taken 10/11am as an example), you have Up and Down trains crossing within about 10 minutes of each other twice an hour. So you would want your stopper to arrive at something like xx.50 to shunt out of the way of the xx.02 Cardiff-Holyhead, but laying over until after the xx.08 Manchester-Cardiff has come through, so that it can pick up passengers for the smaller stations when it returns southbound. You'd then have a xx.20 ish departure back.
Or you could run the hourly stopper in the other half of the hour, arriving at xx.20 ahead of the xx.31 Milford-Manchester and then waiting for the xx.34 Holyhead-Cardiff to depart before shunting if for an xx.45 departure back to Cardiff. (All times approximate).
It's about 40 minutes all stations, so an 80 minute round trip + 25/30 min layover at Abergavenny gives a 10-15 minute max turnround at Cardiff for a 2-hourly cycle, 2 units for an hourly service is possible. However as you're only dropping 2 stations and the line isn't that fast you're saving about 6 minutes journey time in the other trains max. In order to make use of that those trains need to have a later path out of Cardiff to make their paths through Hereford, Shrewsbury, Crewe/Chester etc.
Overall I'd say it's going to be very poor value for money, even though it's theoretically possible.

The shunting could be massively simplified if a connection was provided to the down side siding so it was a simple out-and-back shunt but that would quite possible trigger a total resignalling project.
 

PMN1

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It depends on what shunt moves are available. From what I can see on the signal diagrams (https://tillyweb.biz/gallery/aa/abergavenny.htm) It is possible to shunt from one platform to another but it is not possible to shunt from the platforms to the goods sidings/loops directly so the moves will be complicated - arrive Up platform, reverse out to Down Section Signal, reverse back across in to Up sidings, Wait for northbound train, then shunt into platform, wait for southbound train, then shunt into southbound platform via crossover. Overall 4 reversals. Hence the times allowed below:

The shunting could be massively simplified if a connection was provided to the down side siding so it was a simple out-and-back shunt but that would quite possible trigger a total resignalling project.

Those photos of Abergavenny have me asking does anyone have the track layout before bits were removed?
 

Topological

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Thanks for the calculations @zwk500. Seems like Abergavenny is not an easy place to reverse a train.

The potential Cardiff East station further eats into this. Unless Swanline can be combined with this Abergavenny train in a way that works.

I could see a political argument for the train (and believe I have seen Abergavenny on the metro map in some incarnations). Leaving the Pontypool call in the "fast" trains and adding this new stopper would give more use for all the work being done on Pontypool and New Inn at the moment. That would be nice from a Transport for Wales perspective but would further reduce the benefits of the local service to users of the "fast" trains. There may also be modal shift opportunities from having more services on the section.

Ultimately the thing that is going to improve trains on the Marches is actually having suitable trains and that is coming eventually.
 

zwk500

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Thanks for the calculations @zwk500. Seems like Abergavenny is not an easy place to reverse a train.

The potential Cardiff East station further eats into this. Unless Swanline can be combined with this Abergavenny train in a way that works.

I could see a political argument for the train (and believe I have seen Abergavenny on the metro map in some incarnations). Leaving the Pontypool call in the "fast" trains and adding this new stopper would give more use for all the work being done on Pontypool and New Inn at the moment. That would be nice from a Transport for Wales perspective but would further reduce the benefits of the local service to users of the "fast" trains. There may also be modal shift opportunities from having more services on the section.

Ultimately the thing that is going to improve trains on the Marches is actually having suitable trains and that is coming eventually.
If you were able to juggle the times such that the southbound train called earlier, you could add a southbound starting signal and upgrade the crossover with FPLs to allow a direct departure and you'd have a much simpler operation at Abergavenny. However the issue with that is trying to identify different paths at Crewe - it would probably require the much-discussed Independent line platforms.
 

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If you were able to juggle the times such that the southbound train called earlier, you could add a southbound starting signal and upgrade the crossover with FPLs to allow a direct departure and you'd have a much simpler operation at Abergavenny. However the issue with that is trying to identify different paths at Crewe - it would probably require the much-discussed Independent line platforms.
Is a resignalling of Abergavenny alone out of the question?
The ambitious answer would be making the southbound platform an island (maybe even with the southbound trains going round it with the stopping terminating in the middle if pathing is tight), and an accessible footbridge that continues over the A465 to a P&R car park off the far side of that road.
 

Meerkat

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Technically no, financially yes.
What kind of amount are we talking about - if it enable the stopper to finally run it would be worth a bit wouldn't it?
Also closes a signalbox, or two if you do Little Mill as well (can that be plainlined as Glascoed is out of use or is the crossover still needed?).
 

The Planner

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What kind of amount are we talking about - if it enable the stopper to finally run it would be worth a bit wouldn't it?
Also closes a signalbox, or two if you do Little Mill as well (can that be plainlined as Glascoed is out of use or is the crossover still needed?).
Doubt the revenue from the stopper would touch the surface of the capital cost of resignalling, even with the reduction in headcount and opex. Bet you wouldnt get a lot of change from £25 million.
 

Meerkat

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Doubt the revenue from the stopper would touch the surface of the capital cost of resignalling, even with the reduction in headcount and opex. Bet you wouldnt get a lot of change from £25 million.
Oh, I didn't expect a cash profit - I meant a result to the WG as opposed to waiting for ECTS (tomorrow, its always a day away....). But then the valleys project is their HS2 except they can't descope it to free up capital for anything else...
 

zwk500

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What kind of amount are we talking about -
Depends on the scope (See below)
if it enable the stopper to finally run it would be worth a bit wouldn't it?
Depends how many people catch the stopper.
Also closes a signalbox, or two if you do Little Mill as well (can that be plainlined as Glascoed is out of use or is the crossover still needed?).
The range of interventions possible goes from fitting point motors and a main aspect turnback signal to a full-blown transfer to the ROC. As the line is currently AB doing anything that involves abolishing a box would involve fitting Track Circuits or Axle counters for continuous detection, which massively increases the costs as it has to be done from scratch. I'd hazard a guess that converting Abergavenny station to Colour Light and remodelling the layout to provide Goods loops for both directions with a cross-platform shunt facility (which is probably the minimum spec that's worth doing) would easily be £50m or more. And you'd still need the bobby in the box to do the AB belling to the adjacent boxes (otherwise you need to fit Train Describer equipment).
Oh, I didn't expect a cash profit - I meant a result to the WG as opposed to waiting for ECTS (tomorrow, its always a day away....).
The Welsh Government is already using the European Credits and Transfer and accumulation System for universities :D. ETCS is a slightly awkward matter because AIUI the system as fitted to the Cambrian line isn't compatible with the system being rolled out nationally, and you have the issue of the track not currently being fitted with continuous detection so it needs Axle counters along the length of any intervention. However a modern design could be ETCS-Ready or even L2 with overlay, but that would be a major project, especially as at some point you're going to need to fit the train acceptance equipment between an AB box and the ROC.
 

Meerkat

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The range of interventions possible goes from fitting point motors and a main aspect turnback signal to a full-blown transfer to the ROC. As the line is currently AB doing anything that involves abolishing a box would involve fitting Track Circuits or Axle counters for continuous detection, which massively increases the costs as it has to be done from scratch. I'd hazard a guess that converting Abergavenny station to Colour Light and remodelling the layout to provide Goods loops for both directions with a cross-platform shunt facility (which is probably the minimum spec that's worth doing) would easily be £50m or more. And you'd still need the bobby in the box to do the AB belling to the adjacent boxes (otherwise you need to fit Train Describer equipment).
Does it need goods loops in both directions - it doesn't currently. If you are doing it I would have thought you may as well create the island platform for flexibility and prevent disruption spreading.
I don't really understand the AB belling bit. Presumably someone is currently doing this from Newport (or is it Cardiff now?) to Little Mill, so they would just now do it to Pontrilas?

Just do it - waiting for ETCS is silly, we will all be in flying cars by the time that reaches the Marches!
 

zwk500

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Does it need goods loops in both directions - it doesn't currently. If you are doing it I would have thought you may as well create the island platform for flexibility and prevent disruption spreading.
Need, possibly not, but it would be silly to get rid of the northbound one. Extend that over the sidings and you have a loop with 650m standage, which is very handy indeed. On the southbound side you would want to use the existing siding as a turnback/layover siding which requires a north end connection, may as well keep the other end connection for a 250m-long loop so you can get a failed train out of the way.

The issue with an island platform is whether or not you extend the platforms to match the northbound length - which is almost twice as long. I don't know what the relative cost implications would be of having an extended island with centre turnback vs southbound loop (which obviously could be done away with if there's a 3rd platform).
I don't really understand the AB belling bit. Presumably someone is currently doing this from Newport (or is it Cardiff now?) to Little Mill, so they would just now do it to Pontrilas?
Whoever controls Newport/Cwmbran will be doing train acceptance with Little Mill, but it's not like there is a block instrument on the ROC Workstation desk. Train acceptance is managed through the VDU at the ROC, not sure but I think it's a separate switch at the AB box (it might be linked into the Block instrument but somebody else will need to confirm). You need different equipment and interlocking to manage the transition from continuously detected track to AB, and the VDU display will need updating and the background interlocking redoing to manage it. You don't just unplug a lead and plug it into the next box.

You've gone from adding a couple of crossovers at Abergavenny to installing a new Workstation in Wales ROC, abolishing 2 boxes and modifying a third. With the need to install 40km worth of continuous detection (20km of twin-track Cwmbran to Abergavenny. At least if you abolish Little Mill at the same time you might be able to recover the TD equipment and move it to Pontrilas but it's not going to be cheap.
Just do it - waiting for ETCS is silly, we will all be in flying cars by the time that reaches the Marches!
The Marches hasn't justified conversion to TCB for the almost 100 years or so that the system's been about. It can wait a few more. AB signalled lines are the most sensible ones to wait for ETCS L3 with on-train integrity detection and position reporting, because of the absence of existing train detection.
 

Llanigraham

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Correct yes Woofferton. I think it's the 158s that have that issue due to the ERTMS.

ERTMS units (158s) can have a problem at Woofferton if the ERTMS has not been turned off properly. Most drivers now know about this so the unintentional stops seem to have reduced. It doesn't affect any other units. The 97s didn't seem to be affected.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Its got loads of level crossings oncluding one at Onibury over the main A49. They need sorting.

Other than UWCs, there aren't that many level crossings, considering the mileage between Shrewsbury and Abergavenny:
Marshbook
Craven Arms
Onibury
Bromfield.
Ashford Bowdler AHB
Leominster AHB
Wellington (?)
Moreton on Lugg
Tram Inn
 
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cle

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Can a stopper not run to Hereford instead?

But let's consider a future where that line may have Liverpool services as well as Manchester and Holyhead ones. But there are also smaller stations which would benefit most from a copnnection into Crewe, which has the bays.

Obviously the Manchester could be sped up to a proper 'inter city' pattern, not run West and then maybe separately there is a slower Crewe-Swansea (via Newport) service.

But if not, then there is Liverpool/Holyhead, which would probably even out to hourly - giving another frequency for Shrewsbury and down. If those could be even with the Manchester, then key stations like Abergavenny and Hereford might have a 30 min pattern out of Cardiff, probably fine.
 
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