What could Grand central use instead of Class 180 units to Sunderland and Bradford?

[RobShipway]

If Grand Central where to stop using the class 180 units they are leasing, could they possible use one of the following:

1) Mark 4 coaches and DVT units if they are coming off lease from LNER with class 93 Tri - mode locomotives?
2) Grand Union which like Grand Central is owned by Arriva are looking to lease new bi-mode trains to run services between Paddington to Carmarthen. Could extra units be added to the bi-mode trains order to replace the class 180's with GC?
3) Class 221 units from Avanti West Coast once they are replaced by class 805 and 807 units.
4) Class 222 units from East Midlands Railway once they are replaced by class 810 units.

Personally, long term past the next 10 - 15 years I would say that options 1 or 2 are the better options. However, due to not knowing as to whether they have track rights past 2026 as per post 68 in thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/br-class-180-adelantes.240863/, so they could go for options 1, 3 or 4 in the short term. If they get track rights past 2026, then either class 221 or 222 units could still be used for at least another 10 - 15 years before getting new stock.

 

[Energy]

2) Grand Union which like Grand Central is owned by Arriva

It isn't.

Could extra units be added to the bi-mode trains order to replace the class 180's with GC?

They can do their own tag on order with Hitachi.

so they could go for options 1, 3 or 4 in the short term

Not really, changing rolling stock (even if used) is a significant investment in maintanence and staff training. Operators rarely do it unless they have to, especially open access ones.

If they get track rights past 2026, then either class 221 or 222 units could still be used for at least another 10 - 15 years before getting new stock.

You'd need to figure out maintanence for them, for GC it makes more sense for brand new Hitachi units with depots already nearby than to mess around with old diesel trains.

 

[mike57]

1) Mark 4 coaches and DVT units if they are coming off lease from LNER with class 93 Tri - mode locomotives?

I thought Class 93s were only 110mph. Bearing mind GC services run non stop London - York or Doncaster wouldn't this make pathing difficult?

Ideally do as Hull Trains have done and replace with 8xx bi-modes, but I dont think GC are as busy as Hull Trains, so I would imagine are more finanially constrained.

Running diesel under wires isn't ideal, but in the grand scheme of things 10 services each way every day is a small proportion of the total, so I cant see any pressure to change unless reliability becomes an issue, which was Hull trains reason for changing

 

[RobShipway]

I thought Class 93s were only 110mph. Bearing mind GC services run non stop London - York or Doncaster wouldn't this make pathing difficult?

Ideally do as Hull Trains have done and replace with 8xx bi-modes, but I dont think GC are as busy as Hull Trains, so I would imagine are more finanially constrained.

Running diesel under wires isn't ideal, but in the grand scheme of things 10 services each way every day is a small proportion of the total, so I cant see any pressure to change unless reliability becomes an issue, which was Hull trains reason for changing

Grand Union, are hoping to be running a service to Stirling in Scotland via the West Coast Mainline from London Euston according to http://www.granduniontrains.co.uk/stirlingtolondon/. Looking at the photos it suggests to me that they intend to use MK4 carriages and a class 93 locomotive.

No bearing in mind that they plan to stop at Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Whifflet, Greenfaulds, Larbett and Stirling would this not slow traffic down on the route. Admittedly, there say that the trains would be travelling up to 125mph, but as you correctly say I thought the class 93 where going to be limited to 110mph or is that with just hauling pure freight trains, rather than passengers and light freight?

 

[Energy]

Grand Union, are hoping to be running a service to Stirling in Scotland via the West Coast Mainline from London Euston according to http://www.granduniontrains.co.uk/stirlingtolondon/. Looking at the photos it suggests to me that they intend to use MK4 carriages and a class 93 locomotive.

No bearing in mind that they plan to stop at Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Whifflet, Greenfaulds, Larbett and Stirling would this not slow traffic down on the route. Admittedly, there say that the trains would be travelling up to 125mph, but as you correctly say I thought the class 93 where going to be limited to 110mph or is that with just hauling pure freight trains, rather than passengers and light freight?

WCML is 110mph on non tilt stock.

 

[DanNCL]

Nexus' decision not to order dual voltage units for the Tyne & Wear Metro effectively rules out any extension of 25kV wiring to Sunderland in the next 40 years, so Grand Central would be required to use bi-mode stock even if the rest of their network was eventually electrified. Accordingly they may as well have a bespoke product that's truly an electro-diesel, rather than what the existing 80xs are which is basically an EMU with diesel generators strapped onto it. Stadler would probably jump at the idea of such an order, indeed Stadler being Stadler what's to say they wouldn't propose a dual voltage 25kV AC/1500V DC bi-mode. Hitachi would also no doubt offer a custom design like they did for EMR.

222s seem more likely than 221s. 222s wouldn't solve the issue of diesels running to Kings Cross, but being mid life they'd give GC more flexibility with future fleet plans should they wish to make a change of direction in 10 years time.

1) Mark 4 coaches and DVT units if they are coming off lease from LNER with class 93 Tri - mode locomotives?

As things currently stand no Mark 4s are spare. Not to say that won't change with the way things are going though!

It isn't.

It's owned by Ian Yeowart, who sold all of his previous Open Access TOCs to Arriva once they've gained ORR approval. If past experience is anything to go by there's a good chance of Grand Union ending up in Arriva's hands.

They can do their own tag on order with Hitachi.

Tag on to what order though? Hull Trains was only a tag on order as it was First adding to their own order for GWR.

You'd need to figure out maintanence for them, for GC it makes more sense for brand new Hitachi units with depots already nearby than to mess around with old diesel trains.

The Hitachi depots are full. They were already overstretching themselves by taking on Lumo's fleet. The only options available to GC realistically are Heaton and Crofton, which are Northern and Alstom depots respectively.

I thought Class 93s were only 110mph. Bearing mind GC services run non stop London - York or Doncaster wouldn't this make pathing difficult?

Ideally do as Hull Trains have done and replace with 8xx bi-modes, but I dont think GC are as busy as Hull Trains, so I would imagine are more finanially constrained.

Running diesel under wires isn't ideal, but in the grand scheme of things 10 services each way every day is a small proportion of the total, so I cant see any pressure to change unless reliability becomes an issue, which was Hull trains reason for changing

Stadler would likely offer a 125mph version if one was requested. 110mph isn't really an option on the ECML, it was just about manageable with the 90s but only by keeping them to stopping services - 90s on Newcastle semi fasts on a Sunday didn't keep to time.

There'll no doubt be massive political pressue for GC to get rid of the 180s, as getting rid of them makes the ECML south of Peterborough entirely electric, and allows the government to claim they've 'banned' diesel stock from another London Terminal.

Grand Union, are hoping to be running a service to Stirling in Scotland via the West Coast Mainline from London Euston according to http://www.granduniontrains.co.uk/stirlingtolondon/. Looking at the photos it suggests to me that they intend to use MK4 carriages and a class 93 locomotive.

No bearing in mind that they plan to stop at Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Whifflet, Greenfaulds, Larbett and Stirling would this not slow traffic down on the route. Admittedly, there say that the trains would be travelling up to 125mph, but as you correctly say I thought the class 93 where going to be limited to 110mph or is that with just hauling pure freight trains, rather than passengers and light freight?

I doubt it would make much of a difference on the WCML. If it was booked via the slow lines on the Southern half of the route it would be travelling only with other services at the same speed, and from Wigan it can run in one of the 110mph paths that TPE no longer use.

A 93 would be limited to the maximum speed of the wagons on freight, which is rarely over 75mph.

 

[mike57]

Stadler would likely offer a 125mph version if one was requested.

That would make sense, squeeze some more life out of Mk4s, but with new traction. Bearing in mind it makes sense probably will not happen (sorry got cynical hat on this morning)

I wonder how cost of Stadler 125mph '93s' would equate against 8xx bi modes. Is there any part of the GC non electrified sections with a line speed higher than 75mph? So maybe installed diesel power could be reduced with either solution.

There'll no doubt be massive political pressue for GC to get rid of the 180s

Problem is they OA, so will go with whatever offers the best return, which means that unless the government sweetens the deal they will stick with solution which gives them the best return. The government wont offer money, they didnt even support OA operators during covid, so that pressure will be just be politics and I can imagine those in charge at GC saying 'Yeah yeah, good idea' whilst carrying on with option that is best fo their business.

 

[A0]

Nexus' decision not to order dual voltage units for the Tyne & Wear Metro effectively rules out any extension of 25kV wiring to Sunderland in the next 40 years, so Grand Central would be required to use bi-mode stock even if the rest of their network was eventually electrified. Accordingly they may as well have a bespoke product that's truly an electro-diesel, rather than what the existing 80xs are which is basically an EMU with diesel generators strapped onto it. Stadler would probably jump at the idea of such an order, indeed Stadler being Stadler what's to say they wouldn't propose a dual voltage 25kV AC/1500V DC bi-mode. Hitachi would also no doubt offer a custom design like they did for EMR.

Bit in bold - not just the voltage though - it's also the current draw. Given the use of the 1500v DC OHL was for the Tyne & Wear metro, I can't imagine its designed for a draw that a mainline electric loco is likely to have.

 

[Energy]

It's owned by Ian Yeowart, who sold all of his previous Open Access TOCs to Arriva once they've gained ORR approval. If past experience is anything to go by there's a good chance of Grand Union ending up in Arriva's hands.

Right now it isn't so its fairly irrelevant. Grand Central had a 79% share sold and resold before it was bought by Arriva. Grand Union looks to have backing from Renfe so unlikely to have any Arriva deal.

Tag on to what order though? Hull Trains was only a tag on order as it was First adding to their own order for GWR.

You don't have to be the same operator or owner to do a tag on order, the mk5as for TPE were a tagon to Caledonian Sleeper's despite different owners. The Hull Trains and TPE 802s have a different ROSCO to the GWR ones.

The Hitachi depots are full. They were already overstretching themselves by taking on Lumo's fleet. The only options available to GC realistically are Heaton and Crofton, which are Northern and Alstom depots respectively.

Can Hitachi shift around some stock to other depots further north? They can also extend their current depot if found economical.

Stadler would likely offer a 125mph version if one was requested.

Would they? Its already a tight fit for the class 99 and 93, and the 93 isnt that strong on diesel. Track access charges would be interesting...

 

[DanNCL]

That would make sense, squeeze some more life out of Mk4s, but with new traction. Bearing in mind it makes sense probably will not happen (sorry got cynical hat on this morning)

I wonder how cost of Stadler 125mph '93s' would equate against 8xx bi modes. Is there any part of the GC non electrified sections with a line speed higher than 75mph? So maybe installed diesel power could be reduced with either solution.


Problem is they OA, so will go with whatever offers the best return, which means that unless the government sweetens the deal they will stick with solution which gives them the best return. The government wont offer money, they didnt even support OA operators during covid, so that pressure will be just be politics and I can imagine those in charge at GC saying 'Yeah yeah, good idea' whilst carrying on with option that is best fo their business.

It could be made a condition of their track access agreement.

Bit in bold - not just the voltage though - it's also the current draw. Given the use of the 1500v DC OHL was for the Tyne & Wear metro, I can't imagine its designed for a draw that a mainline electric loco is likely to have.

The new Metro fleet will consume considerably less power than the current metro fleet, and in any case a 1500v mainline loco could be derated for use on the lower voltage as it won’t need to be achieving anywhere remotely near 125mph on it. It could probably be done, but I agree it’s unlikely unless Stadler offered it of their own accord and at a decent price.

You don't have to be the same operator or owner to do a tag on order, the mk5as for TPE were a tagon to Caledonian Sleeper's despite different owners. The Hull Trains and TPE 802s have a different ROSCO to the GWR ones.

But it helps massively if it is the same company.

Can Hitachi shift around some stock to other depots further north? They can also extend their current depot if found economical.

No. If anything the worst one for capacity of the Hitachi depots on the ECML is the one that wouldn’t be of any use to GC anyway - Craigentinny.

Would they? Its already a tight fit for the class 99 and 93, and the 93 isnt that strong on diesel. Track access charges would be interesting...

It doesn’t need to be 125mph capable on diesel.

 

[A0]

The new Metro fleet will consume considerably less power than the current metro fleet, and in any case a 1500v mainline loco could be derated for use on the lower voltage as it won’t need to be achieving anywhere remotely near 125mph on it. It could probably be done, but I agree it’s unlikely unless Stadler offered it of their own accord and at a decent price.

It's not the voltage that's the issue - it's the current draw.

The Class 444s have an 1800 amps draw - when introducing Desiros on to the 3rd rail network they had to have their current draw minimised so as not to overwhelm the infrastructure.

The T&W Metro, whilst electrified at 1,500v DC, the units running on it will have a relatively low current draw.

 

[DanNCL]

It's not the voltage that's the issue - it's the current draw.

The Class 444s have an 1800 amps draw - when introducing Desiros on to the 3rd rail network they had to have their current draw minimised so as not to overwhelm the infrastructure.

The T&W Metro, whilst electrified at 1,500v DC, the units running on it will have a relatively low current draw.

Yes, that’s what I’m getting at. The current draw could be limited on 1500v DC so as not to overload the power supply.

The current Metro units draw considerably more current than the new units will.

 

[Energy]

It doesn’t need to be 125mph capable on diesel.

The 1200kw on hybrid and 800kw on diesel isn't a lot to a class 68kw with 2800kw.

No. If anything the worst one for capacity of the Hitachi depots on the ECML is the one that wouldn’t be of any use to GC anyway - Craigentinny.

Fair enough. Im sure Hitachi could expand the depot if needed.

But it helps massively if it is the same company.

Does it? Hitachi will happily build 802s for anyone, its not like the voyagers and pendolinos which virgin owned the rights to yhe cab design for.

 

[Kite159]

The simplest solution would be something like a 802. Shouldn't take much to clear to Sunderland (as the LNER 800s are already cleared via the Durham Coast for the diverts) which leaves the Bradford route to get cleared. The bulk of the route is already cleared for 802s (from Hull Trains).

Maintenance can be carried out at either Heaton or Doncaster.

Bradford trains can stay on the wires to either Hare Park Junction or change at Doncaster or Shaftholme Junction (for those services going via Pontefract). Sunderland trains can change at Northallerton